Thread: 3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

Here comes a new challenger! Time to turn up the heat!

Originally Posted by Kallera

snip

Gaius' opinion of Eorzean governance is irrelevant. Taking away Eorzean freedom and independence is. Just because you don't agree with a nation's system of governance doesn't mean you have the right to take away their freedom and dictate how they should live. Yes, there are flaws in the Eorzean system - which is based on Hellenic Greece's city-state system, which was known for internal strife - but there are flaws in every system. Proclaiming your own system of governance superior is exceedingly arrogant, and oppressing them is a surefire way to earn their ire.

Eorzeans take the same approach to handling beast tribes and Primals the Garleans do - the difference is that Eorzeans are willing to negotiate with the non-tempered factions of those beast tribes, and put down the primal when it is summoned, instead of declaring genocide the end-all be-all solution along with imprisoning those Primals. While going genocide on the beast tribes would solve the issue of that individual Primal, and imprisoning those Primals will mitigate the threat of it, as shown by history those are short-term solutions at best. Furthermore, as we now know anyone and everyone is capable of summoning a Primal with enough aether and a fervent wish, so to completely remove the threat of Primals would require cleansing Hydaelyn of all life. I'm sure everyone doesn't need to be told how that isn't an acceptable solution.

The Garleans don't need to have confidence Eorzean methods. As long as Eorzea is handling its own problems and not causing danger or damage to Garlean people or territory, they have no right to military intervention, much less conquest. While I do agree that Eorzean governments should not rely on our power to solve their issues time and again (which I applaud Nero for calling them out on), it should not be forgot that they are capable and willing to deal with Primals without us - it just so happens that the Echo lets us save countless lives from being lost, making us a much more efficient solution than using human wave tactics. It should also not be forgot that a decent chunk of Garlean infantry is composed of forced conscripts from conquered territories, so half the time it's not Garlemald's "brave men and women" we're slaughtering but people who had no choice in the matter. As I've explored before that is a questionable thing to do, but the consequences of doing nothing instead are far too dire.

As the aggressors in every conflict we've seen involving them, Garlemald should be well aware and accepting of casualties resulting from their actions. Complaining about soldier deaths resulting from wartime actions, and civilian deaths resulting from insurgency attacks, is refusing to accept responsibility for the consequences of your actions. When you go on the warpath and then take away others' liberties, expect those sorts of things. (As someone who can play a very ruthless political game in Magic: The Gathering's Commander format, I am very well aware of how oppression makes others angry at you and exactly what kind of reprisals it inspires. I factor those reprisals into my plans and prepare for them, as well as accept losses as necessary instead of whining about how unfair it is that I'm being an oppressive douche and people are going after my throat for it.)

The Garleans don't need confidence in Eorzean methods, but unless Eorzean actions are being directly harmful to Garlemald or its citizens there is no justification for their repeated attempts to take away Eorzean liberty. Taking away others' liberties is a surefire way to get them pissed off at you, and you should expect and accept reprisals (and if you're really wise, anticipate and prepare for such things). The same holds true for each and every other region and nation Garlemald has conquered and plans to conquer.

Originally Posted by Cilia

Here comes a new challenger! Time to turn up the heat!

I think you may have overcooked it a bit, lol.

The spirit I agree with; you answered a few counter points how I would have, for starters; but the defense seems to go a bit too far in that specifics seem to over-reach and contradict themselves.

Originally Posted by Cilia

Just because you don't agree with a nation's system of governance doesn't mean you have the right to take away their freedom and dictate how they should live.

Originally Posted by Cilia

The Garleans don't need confidence in Eorzean methods, but unless Eorzean actions are being directly harmful to Garlemald or its citizens there is no justification for their repeated attempts to take away Eorzean liberty.

The Garleans are convinced that the world is going to end. Garlemald is part of the world. They believe that invasion of other nations and eradication of things that put the world at risk is not only self-defense, but the responsibility of those strong enough to do so. It is a righteous calling. They're wrong, and they're going about it wrong to boot, but it's what they believe.

Taken in its entirety, Gaius speech has nothing to do with "disagreeing with governance". It's a warped chain of logic:

1. False gods kill the planet.
2. Eorzea worships false gods.
3. Eorzea's worship of false gods is due to its weak leadership.
4. By killing you, it will show that I am strong.
5. Without you in the way, I can overthrow Eorzean leadership.
6. With strong me in charge of Eorzea, Eorzea will have no use for false gods.
7. Without false gods Eorzea will be no threat to the planet.
8. I must conquer Eorzea to save the planet.

Originally Posted by Cilia

Furthermore, as we now know anyone and everyone is capable of summoning a Primal with enough aether and a fervent wish, so to completely remove the threat of Primals would require cleansing Hydaelyn of all life. I'm sure everyone doesn't need to be told how that isn't an acceptable solution.

Garlemald is already in the wrong; we don't need to misrepresent them by exaggerating their approach. Capability is not intent. The Garleans target those with intent, and then everyone associated with them gets taken along for the ride. That's a bit closer to "a few bad apples spoil the bunch" than "wipe out eveyone even remotely capable of doing the things we don't like."

Originally Posted by Cilia

The Garleans don't need to have confidence Eorzean methods. As long as Eorzea is handling its own problems and not causing danger or damage to Garlean people or territory, they have no right to military intervention

Who judges how well Eorzea is handling its problems? I mean, the Warrior of Light is doing a pretty great job and Garlemald would botch it, objectively. But do they have no reason to disagree with that sentiment? Look at the 4.0 previews.

LOTS AND LOTS OF NEW PRIMALS

They last time they didn't get the job done fast enough, the Seventh Umbral Calamity happened. Imagine if Louisoix hadn't cleaned that up. They think they can do better. They're wrong, but they do.

Originally Posted by Cilia

Primal summonings are indirectly harmful to Garlemald unless it's on Garlean turf.

I disagree. Primals are how the Ascians give power to the desperate and escalate conflicts. Conflicts lead to Calamities. Calamities have the potential to impact the entire world (and destroy entire other realms).

It's like saying the New World had no stake in the War of the Magi because it was on another continent. How many cities were destroyed all over the world by rising sea levels because of what has happening on someone else's turf?

That's not to say Garlemald isn't still wrong - they think they de-escalate conflict, but they just put a lid on it and let it pressurize. The inspire desperation and hate. Putting Ala Mhigo in a box didn't work any better than putting Bahamut in a box.

But being confident in your ideology doesn't make their ideology vanish. Both ideologies are worthless in comparison to the Warrior of Light actually de-escalating conflicts and attacking the roots of Ascian influence.

Well, like I said - we'll just have to agree to disagree. Perhaps we should just drop the matter of Garlemald's actions being justified or not - here, at least. It tends to derail threads rather quickly and ends up with posters just regurgitating the same points...usually between the same few individuals at that. It was not my intention to offend, so apologies if that is the case. As you can guess I'm just very passionate about Garlean lore and I'm well aware that it's an uphill battle when it comes to justifying their motives. For me, though, I see it from their perspective whilst others do it from Eorzea's or the real world's perspective.

But, enough about that for now, perhaps?

I found this on Reddit and figured it'd be well worth linking here since there's a few new scraps of lore to be found:

http://gamerescape.com/2017/01/12/ga...-3-5-and-more/

Originally Posted by Theodric

But, enough about that for now, perhaps?

I found this on Reddit and figured it'd be well worth linking here since there's a few new scraps of lore to be found:

http://gamerescape.com/2017/01/12/ga...-3-5-and-more/

Quick recap: 3.5(as in Part 1) will end with a cliffhanger, The Griffin will be around for 4.0, Yugiri will have an introduction to explain her sudden reappearance, and apparently her absence was planned from the beginning.

Originally Posted by myahele

With Heavensward nearing its end, I wonder if the mysteries surrounding the Heart of Sabik and what lies beneath Silver Tear lake will be revealed? I think the devs said we'll learn more about those in Heavensward.

Hydaelyn received a boost in power thanks to the Crystals of Light + Minfilia going to the 1st Shard world to absorb the excess light, so there's no reason for her to be as silent as she was. Would also be nice for Midgardsormr to start talking again.

I was really looking forward to Keeper (Hard) being a MSQ dungeon or something going forward when they set the early pattern in 3.X, but 3.4 ruined that with Gubal

We were supposed to hear about both of those things during the 3.X series you're right... and we haven't... which is why I'm hoping the 3.5 trailer might not contain anything from 3.55!

(I just now saw GE's write-up, RIP MY DREAM)