Thread: 3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

I don't think revenge is bad as much as the mindless hatred. Nidhogg's revenge really stopped being about revenge. The parties responsible for what happened were long dead. He just transferred his hatred onto another target and that unending hatred consumed him and his brood. I find a good counterpoint to that is Novv. Nidhogg allowed his rage to bring ruin for 1000 years, even to his own brood. Novv still has his anger but he isn't willing to sacrifice the future of his children to satisfy it.

Justice and vengeance overlap a lot. DRKs are literally empowered by anger, pain and thirst for vengeance. It is allowing yourself to be consumed by that darkness which is bad. Nidhogg allowed himself to be consumed by his anger and rage and became little more than a distructive force for everyone, including his own.

I agree that Garlemald as it is currently isn't something we will ally with. I do think however that Ala Mhigo will drag us into an internal conflict within Garlemald which might shift the balance of power and allow for the rise of a more moderate leadership for Garlemald. I feel very confident that we will see 5.0 as the Garlemald expansion. Just remember we basically seem to have the crown prince of Garlemald in Ala Mhigo. If he or the Emperor dies we could see some drastic shifts. If both die we likely have a full blown civil war erupting across Garlemald again as people grab for power.

Originally Posted by Cilia

Even if they limited their brutality to those same people who had abused them, it's little more than revenge when you get down to it, and in case you weren't paying attention during 3.0 - 3.3, revenge is bad. So, if you go seeking revenge, then you're bad, mmkay?

I agree with Belhi: I didn't see the message of 3.0 - 3.3 being this at all. It didn't seem to be saying that vengeance is bad, but rather how you choose to pursue your vengeance determines whether you're bad or not. We were presented with at least two characters utterly devoted to vengeance: Nidhogg and Estinien. Estinien was presented as a very sympathetic character, and Nidhogg as a villain.

Nidhogg wasn't a villain because he wanted vengeance - he was a villain because he became a complete monster in pursuit of that vengeance. Nidhogg decided to torture an entire nation of people for centuries due to the actions of a few. Why? Because after succeeding in his vengeance on those few, he decided that he was still angry and so found someone else to pick on. This is what made him a monster, and why he needed to be put down.

Estinien, on the other hand, while just as obsessed with revenge, reserved that rancor solely for the individual responsible, Nidhogg himself. Once Nidhogg was dead his revenge was over; he didn't try to find some new target for his rage. In fact, he had to deal with the fact that he'd succeeded in his life's goal, and had never really planned what to do beyond that. Estinien was very vengeance-motivated, to be sure, but he was never really portrayed as bad.

Honestly, I didn't feel like Heavensward even HAD an underlying message. It was merely a story about a very unfortunate situation, in which many people reacted in unfortunate ways to unfortunate circumstances. The fault for all this lay with so many people both living and dead that pointing fingers was a fruitless endeavor, and the thing that nearly everyone wanted more than anything else was for it all just to end, one way or another. That was what the WoL accomplished, finally introducing change in a place that had been static for a very, very long time.

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Honestly, I didn't feel like Heavensward even HAD an underlying message. It was merely a story about a very unfortunate situation, in which many people reacted in unfortunate ways to unfortunate circumstances. The fault for all this lay with so many people both living and dead that pointing fingers was a fruitless endeavor, and the thing that nearly everyone wanted more than anything else was for it all just to end, one way or another. That was what the WoL accomplished, finally introducing change in a place that had been static for a very, very long time.

Heavensward seems to have themes of duality, understanding the past, reconciliation, and removing extremes.

Duality: Ishgard and Dravania, Hraesvelgr and Shiva, Estinien and Nidhogg, Hydaelyn and Zodiark, the Light and Dark sects of the Fists of Rhalgr, Lowborn and Highborn

Understand the Past: The awful truth about the Dragonsong War, Scions learning the Ascians motivations, meeting Tiamat, the source of the Tonberry plague in SCH quests, the entire Shadow of Mhach raids, Travanchet giving the horn to Mide

Reconciliation: Peace talks with dragons, Hraesvelgr regaining trust in mortals, Ishgard rejoining the Eorzean Alliance, Widargelt's goal in the Monk job quests, Rostnsthal trying to atone for his past actions, Urianger's gambit in 3.4, Lolorito's confession to Raubahn

EXTREMES: Nidhogg's vengeance, God-King Thordan and the Knights of the Round, Emperor Varis's policies, Quickthinx Allthoughts, the Warring Triad, the fate of the Thirteenth World, the Flood of Light afflicting the First World, Ilberd

While these themes also existed in 1.0 and 2.0 to an extent, they are most prominently displayed here.

Relevant, sort of:



I made it earlier since - unsurprisingly - a lot of my in-game time is devoted to Garlean stuff too.

(I figured some of you lot would find it amusing.)

I think it would be a pretty interesting twist if we get to Garlemald and discover a Legatus who happens to also have the echo and be working for Hydaelyn. Kind of like Iceheart in the view that what they are doing is for the greater good of Hydaelyn. The Garleans already have that view but it would interesting to have to deal with someone who is basically on our side of the playing board but who believes that Hydaelyn needs Garlemald, its power and its ingenuity to survive and that Garlemald, as flawed as it might be, is the planet's best chance.

Originally Posted by Belhi

-snip-

I could see that happening and it reminds me of a particular plot point in FF7. Shinra were antagonists for much of the game's vast plot and despite the organisations Mako Reactors literally bleeding the planet of vital energy it was a Shinra weapon that proved powerful enough to breach the barrier blocking access to Sephiroth's lair. In short, without Shinra the main party and everybody on the planet would have been screwed. Interestingly enough once Sephiroth was defeated Advent Children and other 'expanded universe' content pretty much had Shinra turn itself around and become something of a 'protector of the planet' - mostly because it was the wise and pragmatic approach from a business perspective.

So I'm hoping we'll see similar scenarios play out where Garlemald is concerned - they've got access to some very powerful technology after all and it'd be pretty cool to see it in action and used to destroy something that is a threat to both Garlemald and the Warrior of Light. We sort of saw this already when Gaius used Ultima to consume Garuda, Ifrit and Titan. Though the reasoning wasn't exactly pure.

Originally Posted by Theodric

I could see that happening and it reminds me of a particular plot point in FF7. Shinra were antagonists for much of the game's vast plot and despite the organisations Mako Reactors literally bleeding the planet of vital energy it was a Shinra weapon that proved powerful enough to breach the barrier blocking access to Sephiroth's lair. In short, without Shinra the main party and everybody on the planet would have been screwed. Interestingly enough once Sephiroth was defeated Advent Children and other 'expanded universe' content pretty much had Shinra turn itself around and become something of a 'protector of the planet' - mostly because it was the wise and pragmatic approach from a business perspective.

So I'm hoping we'll see similar scenarios play out where Garlemald is concerned - they've got access to some very powerful technology after all and it'd be pretty cool to see it in action and used to destroy something that is a threat to both Garlemald and the Warrior of Light. We sort of saw this already when Gaius used Ultima to consume Garuda, Ifrit and Titan. Though the reasoning wasn't exactly pure.

I don't know if I would use Shinra as an example as most of the things they helped with only happened largely because of Shinra's actions in the first place. It is fair to say Shinra had eventually turned itself around by Advent Children but it was a long path to get there and they fell along way and were pretty humbled before they turned around. I would also argue that Ultima isn't a great example either since it was reckless use of technology not fully understood that blew up in Garlemald's face and if anything we have seen has told us is that trapping Primals isn't necessarily a good fix and can be potentially catastrophic. One of Garlemald's biggest vices is recklessly messing with tech they don't understand or underestimate the risks of in the pursuit of power. Its that error which has lead to many of Garlemald's biggest disasters, including causing the 7th calamity.

I point to Ishgard as a parallel. Ishgard is a powerful military nation with a number of strong disciplines and has much about it worth saving. But there has been and to some extent still is a lot of bad stuff too which has dictated much of Ishgardian policy. Frankly Garlemald might end up requiring a political shift on the same scale. I'm not saying defanging Garlemald as much or turning them all into hippies but making them more moderate and less focused on conquest and domination.