For the Love of the TWELVE Can We Get a Proper Elemental Wheel?

[Arcell]

Ummmm no, wind does not extinguish fire. Wind gives oxygen to a fire. Have you ever seen the wind pick up in an area set ablaze? Wind gives power to fire. Birthday candles are a horrible example.

You clearly didn't see any of my posts on this. Normal wind forces in our world spread fire, sure. Magical Eorzean wind that can inflict bodily harm and/or kill living creatures is of a completely different magnitude which I'm certain could extinguish a fire.

[Nagamaki]

I have a personal preference towards FFXI's wheel since I'm used to it but both formats basically make sense. Water and wind both erode earth and both can put out fire although for wind you have to look at it as a something more specific than a mere breeze (extremely powerful gusts or controlling which gases are present in the air around the target, ie filtering out the oxygen from the air around a fire to choke it out).

There is a different problem related to the elements given the way the elements were split between classes though, the severity of which will depend on how the elemental relations are adjusted (if at all). I'm strongly hoping SE already took this into account because it would be a pretty monstrous oversight otherwise, but it is worth considering.

Since CNJ/WHM will only have wind and earth, the only elements they'll be able to specifically target are fire and lightning. Against the rest of the elements, the best relation they'll be able to get is neutral. Being primarily a healer, not being able to hit right on a weakness isn't that big a deal though, buffs and cross class stuff should make it up and as a job your main focus will be elsewhere.

For PGL/MNK, assuming the elemental damage aspect of the stance is significant enough to be more useful than the stat bonuses in the right situation (ie if the earth stance makes you hit harder than the fire stance against a lightning mob despite lacking the attack bonus), you'll be able to target lightning, ice and fire. You also have the kick stance though so presumably if you want to do better damage on something that isn't of an element you can target, you just use that, problem solved.

THM/BLM is where the problem might be greater though since you can only target the real weakness of wind, ice and water mobs. You can cross-class an earth and a wind spell from CNJ as THM at least, maybe still as BLM, but that's a little flimsy even if cross-classing isn't penalized as much as it is now and I'm not aware of any statements regarding any such reduction to the penalty. Even then you have 0 spells to exploit the weakness of earth mobs since water won't initially exist based on current info. On top of that, the different elements aren't just clones of each other in terms of effect, they will also vary in terms of base potency (presumably) and AoE, with fire being AoE across the board, lightning being single target and ice being mixed. So if you want to do AoE damage to fire resistant mobs, your options will be quite limited, etc. Nuking will be the absolute core of BLM so situations where your nuking potential is greatly restricted are a much bigger problem than for jobs with other roles and options.

I just hope this isn't a sign that elemental relations will be become an afterthought you can largely ignore, I don't think that's where they want to go but I have to wonder how they'll adjust things to keep the relations relevant in the new more specialized model.

[Firon]

All argument on what puts out flames aside, I really would like to see the traditional FF elemental table brought back to replace this astral/umbral jazz.
It would make the game a lot easier to understand and more keeping with the Final Fantasy theme.

The astral/umbral change is just one of the many things that exist that make me constantly feel like this was never intended to be a FF game to begin with and should be converted or adapted like every thing else for 2.0.

There is no real traditional wheel it has changed from game to game.

[normalforce]

Except.. they are evenly distributed. Wind, Fire, Ice fall in the Astral wheel whereas Water, Earth, Lightning in the Umbral wheel. That's not arguable, it's in the game and it's how it functions. Post #7 has pictures of XIV's wheels if you need a visual.

Edit: Nevermind, I see what you mean in regards to lining them up Kowen. While Lightning is an "Astral" element, it still falls in the Umbral wheel. Best keep that Banish and Scourge up then.

If you look at the chart with the two triangles superimposed on one another, the three topmost elements, Lightning, Wind, and Fire are the Astral elements. And the three bottommost elements, Earth, Ice, and Wind are the Umbral elements. So, individually each wheel might not immediately make sense to why the elements are combined as they are, but if looked at as a whole, the Astral and Umbral elements are grouped together.

[AceofRains]

You clearly didn't see any of my posts on this. Normal wind forces in our world spread fire, sure. Magical Eorzean wind that can inflict bodily harm and/or kill living creatures is of a completely different magnitude which I'm certain could extinguish a fire.

no i didnt read your posts.
I could care less about magical wind, and truthfully, even less about this topic. The XI elemental wheel was fine to me and honestly we dont need any revisions to make things all more complicated. Magic or not wind is wind and it will still give power to fire. fire can kill live creatures too. if you wanted to say "magic terms" then no element could be stronger than another, the power would then rely on the force the caster put into his spell, rendering the precious elemental wheel quite useless.

That being said, the elemental wheel is fine as is.

[Veltaine]

i agree, lets learn how to use the current wheel instead of trying to copy/paste yet another thing into this game.. not everything tanaka did was bad.. just a few

key structural parts.. the wheel imo isnt one of them

[Malakhim]

i agree, lets learn how to use the current wheel instead of trying to copy/paste yet another thing into this game.. not everything tanaka did was bad.. just a few

key structural parts.. the wheel imo isnt one of them

Genn get your butt to Mysidia!

[Atlas]

After all this scientific talk, I feel the need for a CO2 spell.
Better yet, let's change the name from wind to Carbon Dioxide, so we can suffocate enemies.

[Volsung]

I like it the way it currently is. If you're complaining its too complicated or convoluted, you have to be really over thinking it. Also wind does not entail or contain everything found in "air"

Wind could be a vacuum made from pressure difference, wind blades from closely compacting present molecules etc etc

Granted real life comparisons are stupid, part of the elements are energy and some are matter. Its magic. A wizard did it.

[Dragonhaven]

but if they put in a proper elemental wheel and gave back magic defense almost anyone would be able to beat iffrit, that may make that battle director go crazy and rage quit!