The Journey - Is It Still Wanted?

[Kiara]

I wholly favour the Journey, but I dont feel it eminates from the Grind at all.

I liked the traditional xp party, but hated the fact you just camped in one spot the whole time. I spent 10 hours in Boyada Tree in one camp /groan, and didnt learn much about my job as it became a brainless exercise.

I'd agree that partying is pretty much how to meet new people though, but the most cherished memories comes from adventuring with those new friends while trying to do a quest or mission (i.e. a non grindy activity) - that is the Journey. 14 lacks this Journey.

Hi Altanas,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Oh I totally agree regarding Missions. In a perfect world, I think a dream MMO for me would be one where everyone could gain Experience and Level Up via Cinematic, Glorious Adventures (Missions) on the same level of quality of cinematography, in-depth storyline and with dramatic situations as Chains of Promathea's Missions.

Imagine if you could party with friends or strangers via some new interesting Mission that took you around Eorzea every night?

THAT would be amazing and far more interesting than just pure EXP Grinding, but we all know that's not realistic. No Development Team could sustain that much high-quality content for that much time (from Level 1 -> Max and have a good variety of it). One can dream.

But I hope we get more dramatic, interesting Missions when 2.0 hits, with challenging situations like we had in Chains of Promathea.

I actually met some of my best friends from random EXP Parties in XI and some great JP Players who became good friends.

[Volsung]

While I think XI's grind was a lil too slow orginally, I think XIV's is too fast at the moment. Just a smidgen too fast.

[Issac]

While I think XI's grind was a lil too slow orginally, I think XIV's is too fast at the moment. Just a smidgen too fast.

Just a smidgen. Good laugh for the night, thanks. xD

Also, bump for great justice.

[Fensfield]

This is one of my greater concerns, and why I always refuse to be power leveled, and why the ease of instant travel has never quite sat well with me, either, though that at least is more easily avoided.

I hope so much that - especially now that they've decided to keep power leveling in the game - they bring the 'normal' gain rates to a less break-neck pace. I play MMORPGs to just enjoy the journey, and bumping into or playing with people while I travel, and for me my progression through levels frames that, as does watching my character develop - both in roleplay terms and statistically. I don't push for end-game and for me early-mid game isn't the boring bit (and in my opinion, when the people who believe that aren't the minority, there is something wrong with the game itself).

For me, I have to fight against the instinctive feeling that the game ends at 50. I have slowed my leveling right down, largely by just plain playing less, as I find myself compelled to hold back now that I've passed level 43 in the class that I feel defines my character, and engaging in end-game content is.. well, for me it's pretty deliberate. And yes of course I know there are other classes to level, but again, Lancer is the class that defines Forra, and all the fun I'm having progressing through it, once I hit 50, will be done and gone.

So.. yes, suffice to say this thread has my like, for certain, and no I'm not really comfortable with how fast I gain experience, especially given the fact that for people who want to level fast, power-leveling has been made very much an option.

[Blarp]

I did enjoy the journey in XI, but I'm not sure why. If I went back and re-did it today, I would hate it. FFXI was my first MMO. I was in a perpetual state of amazement, but I was amazed and enthralled because it was my first MMO; not because the journey was anything special. I had a lot more fun leveling to 60 for the first time in WoW. In reality, a huge portion of the journey in XI was a horrible grind and I'm not sure how I made it through it.

[Zenaku]

I did enjoy the journey in XI, but I'm not sure why. If I went back and re-did it today, I would hate it. FFXI was my first MMO. I was in a perpetual state of amazement, but I was amazed and enthralled because it was my first MMO; not because the journey was anything special. I had a lot more fun leveling to 60 for the first time in WoW. In reality, a huge portion of the journey in XI was a horrible grind and I'm not sure how I made it through it.

I think what most people are asking for something that is casual but not as slow as ffxi was but not as fast as FFXIV is. level up in ffxiv is 10x fast then in wow when you first start off without Link account.

So something that is fast but still somewhat slow would be great for this type of game.

[Shaedhen]

Couldn't agree more with OP !
That brought back some nice memories, thank you =)

[Jigg]

I honestly enjoy grind parties...I mean any RPG worth it's time has a grind. And those who whine about having to grind or having to level to do anything...why are you playing an rpg to begin with? o.O

If you don't want to grind or level or play with other people, go play an action/adventure game instead.

Also I miss xp loss from death...we need a stiffer death penalty.

[Preypacer]

I think a lot of people look back at their levelling experiences in FFXI with huge nostalgia bifocals. FFXI's grind was tedious and obnoxious back in the day. But, I do agree that there is a journey to be made from level 1 to level cap. Yoshida's thought process of bringing friends into the game and zerging them to the cap is disheartening.

Nope. No bifocals. No "rose colored glasses".

The thing that needs to be understood here is that someone's perceptions arise from their expectations, or their goals.

If you notice - most people (not all, but most in my experience) who complain about leveling being too much of a grind and who want to PL to level cap are focused only on one thing: End Game. That's what they're playing the game for. They don't care about the journey and, in some cases, would actually prefer it didn't exist so they could jump into end-game type content from day 1. I've seen such sentiments stated myriad times, across many MMOs.

If a MMO came out that had no journey, no levels, no progression and everyone started "at level cap" and could jump straight into killing raid bosses for better gear or be competitive in PvP against "vets", they'd be in heaven and would feel "the perfect MMO" had finally been achieved.

For all intents and purposes, that type of player will would PL their way through the game with absolutely zero interest in experiencing, much less enjoying the journey 'cause they couldn't care less about it.

'course some of them are so wrapped up in themselves and what they want, that they never understand that progression, leveling and such are as much part of the MMO experience - even more, if you look at it in terms of where the most content is - as end game. To them, the 10%-20% of content that compromises endgame is 100% of "what the game is all about."

So, that type will never desire nor enjoy the journey and it will always feel like an unbearable grind to them. Because that's not where their head is.

On the other hand, those who enjoy the journey, who enjoy going to the different camps, grouping up with people and killing mobs for hours, socializing, exploring and such are less likely to find "the grind" unbearable at all. Some don't see it as a grind in the first place, because it's all part of the experience. They are playing the game for very different reasons, with very different expectations. End game is important, but they'll get there when they get there. There's plenty to be done before they reach that point.

For myself, I hardly ever felt FFXI was a grind because whatever I was doing was pretty much always what I was in the mood to do. If I didn't find it enjoyable, and it wasn't "mandatory" in order to accomplish a larger goal, then I just didn't worry about it. I genuinely enjoyed xp parties, even those that went on for hours. To me, it wasn't about "grinding xp as fast as possible." It was about hanging out with a group of people for an hour or two, or three, chatting, joking around and having some fun killing mobs, getting through some close-calls. Killing mobs and getting xp just happened to be what we were doing in the process. And there were many people I met who were like that. If someone died? No big deal. It's just xp. You get it back. We'd invested possibly hundreds of hours into the game and were likely to invest many more, so an extra 30 minutes to get back some lost xp due to the occasional bad pull was not a big deal.

It was always funny to see the contrast in personality when we'd get someone in our pt who was from the former group - the power-levelers who hate grinding xp. We'd be talking and having fun while xp'ing, and the grinders would be fussing about their xp/hr constantly, wanting to move to areas with tougher mobs so we could get more xp per kill. They'd complain, occasionally, that everyone was talking too much, some flat out telling us to stfu and concentrate on killing 'cause their xp wasn't coming fast enough. They'd eventually leave our group (usually immediately after leveling, of course) and go off to find some other party. Occasionally they were booted for being obnoxious.

Personally, I was always rather agitated by those people. That they were so obsessed over leveling as fast as possible, that they couldn't even enjoy themselves in the process was their own issue. I can't help how another person perceives something. When it annoyed me was when they didn't want anyone else around them having fun either. We had to shut up because they werent' getting xp fast enough. "Less lip flapping. More killing", as one such person repeatedly said, in between telling us to "shut our mouths", before we found a replacement and booted them. Apparently our only purpose there was to help them level faster. Of course. -eye roll-

But anyway... the point is, that when people appeal to incredulity by making assertions such as "those who say they enjoyed the grind are seeing through bifocals" or "rose colored glasses" are really not "hitting any nail on the head". They're judging others through their own bias. "I didn't think grinding levels was fun, so there's no way those other people did either. They're just seeing through nostalgia goggles". No. We're really not. We just didn't have the same approach to or mentality about the game.

[Allistar]

I wholly favour the Journey, but I dont feel it eminates from the Grind at all.



I liked the traditional xp party, but hated the fact you just camped in one spot the whole time. I spent 10 hours in Boyada Tree in one camp /groan, and didnt learn much about my job as it became a brainless exercise.

I dont feel part of the world in a grind party camp, I feel like I'm doing nothing to the world just killing the same crab over and over. I much prefer objective based parties like Assaults (as opposed to Guildleves style objectives) and roaming parties (overworld or dungeons) as these mix tactics up so it doesnt become a snoozefest.

There is a clear reason why grind parties should not be centre stage - because most grind parties dont bother with half the zones mentioned in the OP.

I'd agree that partying is pretty much how to meet new people though, but the most cherished memories comes from adventuring with those new friends while trying to do a quest or mission (i.e. a non grindy activity) - that is the Journey. 14 lacks this Journey.



Ironically, places like Temple of Uggalepih are cherished not because of any xp parties, but because they were visited so rarely and even then just for unique quests or missions.

I'd also say that in 11 yes we have cherished memories from going to Dunes or Qufim, but I would say the best memories in 11 actually come from the frustration of failing the Missions so much you have to keep doing them every evening to clear them. You log on each time and see at least the same people wanting to try again and again.

I would say it was the sheer difficulty of the Missions that taught people how to play their jobs rather than the grind parties. If you knew your job through xp parties then surely you would have passed the Mission first time no? This comes round in circles and asks what is the point of the Grind.

There might be this one Tarutaru who wants to sub WAR on his BLM and you all /sigh. You might part ways but at a later Mission you'l cross paths again, and then a year or two later when you walk around Sea and see that same Tarutaru BLM friend now perfectly soloing sharks it makes you smile. Then another year or two later the same Tarutaru twaddles into Walk of Echoes showing off his new Shiny Spell only to get smacked for over 9000 damage, again makes you smile and together you laugh it off.

To draw from this though, the Missions in 11 were all end-game in a sense and it was from all these perfectly placed end game points that you learnt your role.

The Promyvion missions at 30 were an end game to the level 30 characters. You explored Promyvion with your level 30 group going up several floors to a boss. It was the first time you would have been in a roaming party and told to stop because the WHM had to rest (something you didnt realise in all those levels before).

In later years, Sky, Sea, Walk of Echoes et al became endgame events and you learn your role through exposure to differing strategy, not through brainless snoozefests whacking on a defenceless crab.

What, I would say, 14 needs, for the community to grow and to experience the Journey, are those group orientated missions with zones locked away until they are completed.


This thread really raises a number of issues

1.Journey - the memories - 14 doesnt have this because of its lack of forced group content/missions. There is no place in 14 that compares to say Temple of Uggalepih from 11 - i.e. there is no place that we must go to with at least one other person. Or lets put it in a stronger way --> there is no place that anyone dare go to without at least one other person. There is no place as frightening as Castle Zvahl that it has you on the edge of your seat at level 50.

2.Grind - Granted we need some Grind in an MMO - but can we move on from "xp parties" in 11's sense of standing still killing the same crab as it spawns again and again.

3.Learning your role - Can you do it through Grind or Can you do once your at your "end game" point. I would have to say as 11's community matured, the newer players learnt at endgame. This is because the veterans led the xp parties and ensured there were no accidental links. A newer player could get to 75 with perfect parties, but then have never learnt about coping with links until doing endgame.


Just for clarity, my best friends in 11, with the exception of one, were players that i NEVER met in a grind party - i met them in other ways all in game.

This is the type of feedback that SE should be concentrating on...this is the reason why IMO FFXI should have been used as inspiration for FFXIV, not so much as to copy or make it FFXI 2, but because it serves as a much better guide than most of the other mmorpg's out there who all have tried on WoW's formula and failed terribly...XI had its own identity, it stood out in a crowd and it survived against a 10 mil pound whale...XIV can do the exact same thing...take what made XI a success in its fan's eyes and apply it here, but expand on those ideas....XIV has the potential to be a great game, but SE needs to start concentrating on what they know best about rpgs and apply it here...I mean seriously if they didn't have a winning formula we wouldn't have FF1-10, 12 and 13 offline getting the accolades that do and have