The Journey - Is It Still Wanted?

[Kiara]

I feel there is so much that people have forgotten about the journey in recent years...

A sense of accomplishment-

A lot of people argue that accomplishment shouldn't come from time spent playing the game, and honestly, I kinda agree. But the grind does add something to that. It separates players... now before you start telling me that's a problem, let me explain why I see it as a strength for an MMO.

When I started playing FFXI I had been invited by a friend. He not only taught me how to use the interface, macros and auction house (ah the life lessons of crystals +auction house = gil) but he showed me who I could be. He very early on took me around and showed me some areas (not many places I couldn't reach on my own, he felt I should earn those) and the little Tarutaru proceeded to decimate everything. Swarms of mobs would fall at his feet at the flick of his level 67 black mage wrist. Enemies that could kill me by looking at me.

In a way it was reminiscent of Megaman X. In the first game, the very first stage the boss is set to beat you. You can't damage him, you can't avoid him, cant escape him, and when all hope seems lost Zero busts in and destroys the dude in a single shot. Instantly you are thinking "Man this guy is awesome! I want to be like him, I want to be that strong!" He quickly becomes that cool character, that awesome goal, the strong guy you aspire to. He then proceeds to say that while you are not as strong as him now, someday you will be! This is huge, the promise to one day be as strong as him becomes a big part of the game, collecting health boosts, new armors, new weapons it all has that theme.

From an MMO stand point, watching people topple beasts that send you running in a single blow is a huge incentive to keep playing, they not only become your inspiration, but your rival. They make every level, every grind party, every over ambitious pull worth while. This separation gave players a much more substantial, and sometimes, more meaningful goal than simple end game. To go from a beginner, just learning the ropes, to an equal, a comrade, someone who doesn't just respect these masters, but is respected by them. If these things are easy to achieve, then not only do strong players fail to impress on any substantial level, but you care very little about these self set goals.


Rites of Passage-

Many people fail to bring things like this up but an MMO is a world with players, and that's it. Now a GOOD MMO on the other hand is its own culture. This is shown, not only through the NCPs or the story, but through the players and how they teach and treat each other. I remember when I hit level 10, my friend was quick to tell me that I needed to go to the Valkurm Dunes and find a party. This place was where I learned how to party, and it was a lot to learn from me as I was a warrior and therefor the tank (I remember when I first died, and after a resurrect I ran right back into battle not knowing anything about weakened status, not a good idea for a tank, but you have to admit I showed the will and tenacity for the job)

This journey was a big deal, they congratulated me on my accomplishments, the told me how close I was to my sub job all of these things were treated as mile stones, achievements worthy of praise, and celebration. Me and my party was lead into the dunes by an experienced and strong player, to teach us how to hunt our prey. He taught our thief how to pull, our DDs and healers how to keep hate off of them, as well as teaching me how to keep hate where I wanted it, and who to protect from it. He then would stay and watch us fight as we took our first few enemies, always ready to spring into action if ever we needed help. It was like a first hunt. Experienced hunters came along to teach us how to survive the hostile world and after that we were on our own, "adults" if you will. It made my levels going up was actually connected to my character growing up. He felt like he was growing into a warrior, and how the community treated this only solidified it.

Now if the game's "Journey" is too fast, and leveling does not give time to truly develop any traditions, then the Culture of the game is lost. Not only is there no need for these moments of learning how to play under the watchful eye of your elders, but there is no reason to celebrate getting to level 10 or getting a chocobo, none of it feels like noteworthy accomplishment...

Am I saying that the game should go to a months to level, grind fest? No. All I am saying is that if all a game focuses on is the end game content, look how much we miss out on. If someone comes up to you and says, "Seinfeld was a show about nothing" or "West Wing was about a president who got elected again and then someone else got elected" would you say you experienced anything? If all the game is, is endgame, then it's like fast forwarding through any tv show and then watching the last episode. Even though you watched the last episode, you missed too much to say you experienced anything of any value. You never learn to love the characters, never feel good for their achievements, and never feel bad when they are hurting. All you got was them saying goodbye, and I wouldn't watch a show that was nothing but goodbyes from people I don't care for.

Hi Remnant,

Thanks for the great reply.

You bring up many of the feelings and sentiments that I have. Like you, I remember seeing my first inspiration while starting out in Final Fantasy XI. My friends and I were braving the area just outside Windhurst, with our low-level characters and I remember seeing a group being overwhelmed with adds. They died, but then a White Mage in the classic Final Fantasy White Artifact Armor, happened to be passing through and proceeded to Raise the group. She then stayed and threw on Protect, Shell for them and watched the group recover and try fighting again, cheering them on before leaving.

I remember seeing my first group of Level 75s running through Qufim Island (no doubt on the way to Behemoth's Dominion, but I didn't know at the time), and being in awe as they fearlessly ran through with little-to-no-care, and helped clear a path for us stuck inbetween the entrance and Delkfutt's Tower.

There are countless other moments, like seeing a Monk execute Asuran Fists for the first time. I was in awe and he became an inspiration for me to want to reach Level 75 and get achieve that Weaponskill one day.

I hope the new Final Fantasy XIV Version 2.0 and the new lands and quests / missions and new classes can provide that for all of us as well. To create a good pace, and culture where these things can occur (instead of a mad rush to reach Max Level End Game Only).

I hold out hope that Yoshida-san and his team can deliver.

[Kiara]

My Minority Opinion: I would have liked a version of FFXI where level progression was tied to completion of the various CoP missions. Overcoming challenges along the way would have broken up the grindy aspects of leveling and made the journey that much more memorable and satisfying.

No thanks to PLing. No thanks to cheezy Ifrit shortcuts.

Hi HoolieWho,

I think it's a great idea. I had similar thoughts about a dream scenario that I posted in this reply:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post451231

Thanks~

[tachikoma]

I like the idea's by HoolieWho as well but how do you deal with lvl'ing multiple jobs? One thing off hand I can think of as easy ways of dealing with breaking up the current grind even if its not very long is to have lvl cap quests like 11 had. Giving you breaks from grind party w/e.

[Jinko]

There are countless other moments, like seeing a Monk execute Asuran Fists for the first time. I was in awe and he became an inspiration for me to want to reach Level 75 and get achieve that Weaponskill one day.

Would a lvl 1-10 player not feel this way if they saw a Lancer perform Choas Thrust ?

If someone ran outside Ul'dah city gates to see someone soloing a Basalisk wouldn't they be in awe ? (obviously they aren't there anymore)

You look back at FF11 with fond memories but what you are asking for isn't obtainable for you anymore, because you were new to the genre you hadn't experienced these things before so they made a much bigger impression on you. (you now look back at those same experience with nostaglia)

Sad to say you are now a jaded adventurer like the rest of us, we have seen it all pretty much.

Even if this game played exactly like FF11 we wouldn't be as awe inspired and impressed because we have been there and done it.

@HoolieWho aren't the job quests kind of similar to what you suggest, they break up the grind with a new kind of progression.

If you look at it from a new players experience, you would level to 30/15 and then go on a quest to unlock your paladin (or whatever it may be) and then every 5 levels the grind will be broken up by a different kind of progression.

The more I think about this thread the more it makes me think "wait what ??" this game doesn't have enough content for us to be inspired, nothing to work towards, of course the journey will be boring.

[Kiara]

There are some great stories in this thread.

I agree with the OP but in no relation to the PLing. The progression is not there, nor was it ever. I certainly hope it returns with the map redesign and it sounds most likely that it will based on what Yoshida has said regarding it. I think with independent areas there will be significant mob re-locations involved and that that will break it up a little.

I too have the same fond memories as many do with their first step into Vana'diel, making friends, joining their first LS and everything else that came. But, XI was my first step into the MMO world and most of the nostalgia and feeling I have for the game comes from that fact. I do have some fond memories from Aion in the beginning but again, that was a first (PvP) that inspires the sense of fun and adventure.

Although many of us have fond memories of our first exposure to those zones and experiences most of us dreaded going back to them on our 2nd, 3rd, 20th job. I don't ever remember hearing "Yay time for Valkurm again!" outside of a sarcastic comment. The same goes for nearly every other zone, much to the point where people took to soloing and powerleveling in XI to avoid them. My point being, most of the players now having at least 1 lvl 50 have no desire for a grind like that.

The main problem is that there is no awe inspiring sense of progression at all so nobody cares to enjoy what doesn't exist. There are no milestones yet, the Job system strives to change this but will it? Should that change in the future and people start enjoying the grind a bit more then powerleveling will likely go down.

Hi Syn,

Definitely agree. I hope with the Landmarks and Map Redesign in 2.0 that we start getting interesting areas that people will want to explore and take time to EXP in. I know I want to, just from looking at the early 2D Concepts (which look simply, inspiring!) .

I would say, though, that even on my 3rd or 4th time through Valkurm Dunes or Crawler's Nest, while it wasn't as intensive or awe-inspiring as my 1st time through, I had fun. Because during those times through, I knew the full area of the Dunes or Crawler's Nest or Qufim Island well enough to know where to camp, and I actually enjoyed helping out newbies just starting, teaching them about good camps, or how to pull, or how to do Skillchains (Renkei).

And yes, as you said, there are no Landmarks right now in XIV. We go from one generic Aetherial Gate Camp to a similar-looking Camp and get EXP in a pretty safe environment all the way to 50 (or others get it from PL'ing quickly).

I look forward to the new Final Fantasy Maps, New EXP Camps, Main Mission / Storyline after 2.0, and hope to see some grand, epic Missions come out of it, taking us to different parts of the world. Hopefully it's inspiring enough for everyone that they'd want to gather some friends or strangers and EXP there.

[Lucifer]

Pretty Princess actually thinks you are the one getting flustered since you feel the need to throw around petty insults. Pretty princess and others also believe it is you who is spewing the garbage. Pretty Princess also knows that it is you who is the bitter one. This please Pretty Princess :3

More of the same garbage seen by this mentally unstable person. Possibly bipolar. What ever the ailment, termination should be highly considered.

[AdvancedWind]

XIV and XI are different. Unlike XI, if I dont like what a certain group is doing guess what? I go solo. Efficiently.

Good luck taking on Ifrit solo.

[Kiara]

People want places to explore? To do what exactly? Take pictures? No. People will not venture further than they need to. If you don't have something to do in that area, people will not be there. Force people to visit these areas you work so hard to create, SE. Introduce level cap quests, moderate experience intake, introduce even more unique materials that can only be obtained from specific coordinates. Things that add game time to your routine. Having to travel to these locations might be considered time sinks but that does not matter if reaching that point becomes part of the fun.

Hi Lucifer,

Great point.

Surprisingly Tanaka-san's original team actually put in a few interesting places in XIV (even w/ the Copy & Paste mentality). For those that haven't seen the giant "Mana Tree" near Sorrel Haven (in The Black Shroud), or The Isles of Umbra (overlooking the oceans around Limsa), they are pretty areas.

But sadly, even after telling all my JP and English-speaking friends about these beautiful areas to go and visit... only 2 people have bothered to go out to those outskirts to view them.

Generally, if there's no incentive to go visit places, it seems very few people want to go there "just to see it," as you noticed as well.

So I hope that our 2.0 version of "Camp Black Brush" or "Camp Bentbranch" or "Camp Horizon" takes new players and old players to interesting, stunning locales that are memorable in terms of visual design, map design, creature placement, landmarks and with quests or missions found there.

I remain hopeful!

[PrettyPrincess]

Good luck taking on Ifrit solo.

Silly I have an open minded ls for events such as Ifrit none of that pickup garbage.

More of the same garbage seen by this mentally unstable person. Possibly bipolar. What ever the ailment, termination should be highly considered.

blah blah blah?

[AdvancedWind]

Now, to adress some of the things said in this thread.

I do agree with quite a lot of what's has been discussed here in regards to both FFXIV's lack of varied environments, sense of progression and the ridiculously easy leveling curve due to the PL craze.

However, I do NOT agree with quite a few players that keep dropping sentences like

"You need to EARN X"

"you need to work very hard to level up!"

and other similar posts.

This is a damn game and we should never "work" towards having our fun. We should have fun while "working" towards our goals. And sorry, shouting for parties for a hour, then wasting half a hour to reach the spot, kill the same crap for hours and then losing your level after getting killed by a random NM that you aggroed because of a minimal mistake is NOT fun. Okay, maybe that last part can be funny sometimes..

Anyways, yes, we should be rewarded by spending more time in the game and we should be rewarded by taking the time to do whatever time sink is imposed to us, be it a grind or whatever it is. However, said time sink SHOULD ultimately be fun. That's the proper way to do a time sink. In other words, I'm totally against grinding for grind's sake. Grinding so we "earn" the right to level up and do other content.

The bottom line is, whatever it is we are doing in this - GAME - the main objective should always be having - FUN -. Always. Yes, sometimes, you may need to do certain things to make the overall experience better, even if you don't particularly enjoy doing that activity. Be it leveling a class you don't like, or leveling a craft, whatever.

However, I think that such things should be cut out entirely whenever possible. If the community is "forcing" players to learn skills X, Y, Z to do certain content, this should be addressed by the devs in one way or another, for example. If 90% of the playerbase expects you to do or have X, then it is hardly optional.

In the same way, if the leveling process is boring as hell, this also should be addressed by the devs, but the way they seem to be dealing with in the current game (that is, removing the grind almost completely so you can skip to the end game), indeed is NOT the right way imo.

There should be a reasonable level of grinding that takes a while to reach the cap, however it must be one that makes you think "Hey, I've had a blast with this party, can't wait to be able to do X or reach the next area!" instead of "Damn...still need two more hours of this crap before calling it a day..". If at any point anyone complains about what he's currently doing in the game in that way, then the devs pretty much screwed up.

The reward, accomplishment or whatever at the end of the grind shouldn'be "I finally got past this level! Thanks god, I never have to do this crap again!".

Therefore, If SE is unable to deliver us this kind of leveling experience that is fun, engaging, reasonable and full of milestones and a good sense of progress, then don't even bother messing with the current level curve, because at the very least it allows us to skip the boring parts.