[dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

[Zanfire]

Ahh the good old times of waiting days for an invite, to finally get one..then half the PT leaves when they see you're a DRG.

i remember those days very clearly. What was odd was that i played one of the most desirable jobs as my first to 75 (RDM) and my second was DRG (which i enjoyed much more) but that was back when yes, loldrg was still going on and our 2hr was call wyvern.

hopefully this was not the full list of skills for the jobs. Id like to see more with better explanations soon.

[Yelta_Sumasu]

That's what I thought.... but couldn't make a good enough case to my LS...

[Rubicon]

I think this thing has a few typos. For one, why are there 4 fire spells for THM/BLM? I thought we were trying to avoid redundant abilities. Second, why do CON, THM, and BLM all have sleep spells? This is especially confusing since they actively mention CON being able to put mobs to sleep, whereas don't make that same mention for THM. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't help but think that they made a mistake there.

Either way, still excited for PUG, MNK, and BRD.

Also, no Fire single target when the other elemental spells have single target. Why do we need three Fire AoE spells?

[Mihana]

I'll admit I don't know much about Thaumaturge lore, but they've always seemed to be more on the Black-Mage end of the spectrum.

My THM is only up to 31 so far yet from what I had seen nothing ever mentioned the elementals in their studies. Thaumaturgy dealt with life, death, and controlling the aspects of these two. They heavily believed in religion (Nald and Thal, it being that when you died, you went on to rest in Thal's realm.) and had the potential to manipulate life. In fact they had means of resurrecting the dead through forbidden arts. Basically, a Thaumaturge would fit the roles of a Dark Knight (Like a THM/GLA combo.) or even a Necromancer. Acts of using conjury (IE elemental spells) weren't ever in their storyline.

[Synfrag]

i remember those days very clearly. What was odd was that i played one of the most desirable jobs as my first to 75 (RDM) and my second was DRG (which i enjoyed much more) but that was back when yes, loldrg was still going on and our 2hr was call wyvern.

hopefully this was not the full list of skills for the jobs. Id like to see more with better explanations soon.

LOLDRG! I <3 u

[Estellios]

Also, no Fire single target when the other elemental spells have single target. Why do we need three Fire AoE spells?

Fire Combos seem to be focused on doing heavy, fast, consistent damage over an AOE. Each stage of the combo reduces the casting time of the next spell so this is how you'd do burst damage to mow down a group.

[AmyRae]

Actually Aero and Earth Spells, traditionally belong to WHM, not BLM.

Water is a BLU spell in most FF.

BLM always had Fire, Thunder and Blizzard as Elemental Magic Spells.

FFXI was the exception to this.

White mage had Aero. Once. In FF3. Hardly a tradition but technically not unprecedented. I don't know of any earth nukes they've ever had.

I will agree Fire, Ice, and Lightning are traditional black mage spells in many instances, so I have no qualms that they provide the "Final Fantasy" feel.

I don't even know where your idea about Water being blue magic comes from. Lulu, Vivi, Ravagers in XIII, and the black mage job of X-2 all had water nukes.

[Estellios]

^^^

Water-element spells started out solely with the Leviathan summon. After that, FF5 started the trend of Blue Magic getting the elements that Black Magic didn't (in this case, Water through Aqualung/Aqua Rake and Wind through the Aero line). It was Blue Magic in FF6 and 7, too. 8 on made it an actual Black Magic spell.

[AmyRae]

^^^

Water-element spells started out solely with the Leviathan summon. After that, FF5 started the trend of Blue Magic getting the elements that Black Magic didn't (in this case, Water through Aqualung/Aqua Rake and Wind through the Aero line). It was Blue Magic in FF6 and 7, too. 8 on made it an actual Black Magic spell.

Nah, your history glosses over a lot of water-based attacks. You'd probably consider it the domain of Geomancers and Summoners before you would Blue Mages. Prior to FF8, water was in 6 Geomancy spells, 5 summons, and only 3 Blue magic spells.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Water_%28Element%29

[Tibian]

Going to take a small step back from the bickering and moaning to provide some constructive posting.

Mage ONLY 1.20 and 1.21 revisions review

The Good

• Black Mage magic combos: The magic combos really seem to be a strong point for black mages. This type of creative implementation of debuffing is a strong suit for THM/BLM that should be expanded on in the future.
• Cross class abilities: Mages are going to level up another mage class. It makes logical sense to, so why not? With cross class abilities, BLM will have every element at their disposal (excluding water, which I'll get to in a small disclaimer [1] at the end.).
• Black mage identity: I feel Black mage and nuking casters have a very prominent identity with the class changes.
• Enmity control: with CNJ/THM skill swapping only, mages will finally (hopefully) have a way to control enmity at their own discretion, especially when things get hairy in battle.
• PLD Ability 2: This ability puts a HoT on those around the Paladin when the PLD receives a cure. This is a fantastic skill for mages/healers. (Slight disclaimer [2] with it though.) I love the uniquness of this ability and how it plays off literally the ENTIRE party mechanics. Not only is it great for topping off melee DPS, but it includes coordination for healers to say, "Hey, the DPS needs topped off, pop x ability." I'd LOVE to see more of these creative spells/abilities added for every class.
  
  Disclaimer [1]: Water may be an ability reserved for Arcanist/Geomancer. After all, they need to give Arcanist a way to attack and level up.
  
  Disclaimer [2]: The Paladin Ability 2 may lead to an overbearing necessity for PLD only tanks. While I /personally/ don't hate this particular example, I would hate to be in the situation where I was excluded from a party because I was a tank, just not PLD. IE: Requiring gladiator leveled for sentinel is ridiculous: same concept. This again falls in the XI situation of excluding classes for specific roles. I don't think that is a healthy way to encourage class diversity. With that being said, a possible fix to this solution would be to simply give WHM an exclusive skill that casts an HoT on all party members in range of the target, and give PLD something else.

The Questionable/Semi-OK

• Traits: I don't think we can have a proper review of skills unless the traits come out with them. I understand they may not be in a condition to reveal at the moment. More ACTIVE and IMPACTFUL traits should be encouraged and implemented.
• Raw debuffs missing:I am actually a big proponent of debuffs in MMO's. I think they encourage different types of gameplay depending on the group makeup and scenario of the battle. Unfortunately, raw debuffs have completely vanished and instead have been implemented via combos. I love this inclusion, but I think each mage class should probably have one or two raw debuffs to simply round out casting.
• Too few spells?: I am drawn to love simplicity in everything. Sadly, I feel the mage classes feel slightly empty still. Two to three more skills per mage class would probably make me feel 100% welcoming of the incoming changes. Raw debuffs maybe? With that being said, these changes feel welcome and appropriate.
  
  

The Undesirable

• PLD Ability 2: This ability scares me into thinking Paladins will necessarily be desired and/or required over Warriors for tanking. I think this will flesh itself out eventually after we see how PLD/WAR mechanics fully work, I just want to draw caution to it now.
• BRD Magic 1: I don't want to see this ability mandating the inclusion of bards into every single party I am in. I understand that there are plenty of MP regeneration tactics now, and with the alchemy revisions I imagine that Ethers will be more potent and useful. Sadly, if MP regeneration really becomes an issue, this ability by itself will solidify Bards as a requirement. Please make sure this is a BALANCED spell, that doesn't make or break a fight.
• WHM Magic DPS Combo Debuffs: WHM are supposed to cure, buff, and maintain overall party survival. I really don't want my WHM attacking to debuff a target when they should be saving that mana for heals. If you want to make WHM more unique, give them more active moves such as a 10 second buff to the target that substantially increases defense or evasion. Or a self buff that increases healing potency for the next 15 seconds. I feel CNJ/WHM uniqueness is severely lacking compared to THM/BLM. Please rectify this with more active and impactful WHM/Healing skills. CURE, CURAGA, and REGEN, will not suffice. One to two more active healing spells should be appropriate. I have made a suggestion in the suggestions for a great spell based on the bard spells.
• THM Abl. 2:Increases range of next spell. I don't understand this at all. I can see this being used maybe once in 1000 casts. This also might be an EXTREMELY situational move where the boss casts an AoE mega move (Hellfire) in which the mages (both healers and nukers) could avoid by stepping out of the AoE range and continue nuking/healing for ONE spell. I just don't see this being a valid spell/ability at all. It is by far too situational and uterly useless to be included. As of right now I do feel this is a wasted slot for something that could be significantly better, such as a raw debuff or buff such as haste/slow/paralyze. I strongly encourage reworking this ability.
• Regen being tied to enhancing magic aka: VITALITY STAT. WholieWho has posted that Regen was considered enhancing magic in XI and may work the same with these revisions. I'd like to say now that enhancing magic is broken as far as statistics are considered. Unless there are drastic changes to how enhancing and enfeebling potencies work, I strongly recommend keeping regen tied to healing potency. Enhancing magic should not be tied to vitality, it should be attached to mind. Piety should be removed as a base stat, and enfeeble should be attached to INT. Raw MP can be split between MND and INT. The 'tiered' system for enhancing and enfeebling magics simply dictate that it isn't worth the cost/benefit trade-off to socket your gear for enhancing/enfeebling versus healing potency, MATK potency, MACC, or even raw MP.

Suggestions

• Add another WHM magic spell: I'd like to see an additional WHM skill the following:"Gradually restores the HP of all party members within range." I think an AoE HP Hot would be very welcome for WHM identity. Sometimes a direct Cure/Curaga just seems inefficient. This would clearly require a relatively high cooldown and would be situational for topping off the entire party over time.
  
• Demanding classes for specific fights: It appears this list of changes has THEORETICALLY made the requirement for leveling unrelated classes less important. This is a good thing. I just want to suggest that specifically the BRD Mag 1 and PLD ability 2 scare me. These skills have the potential to necessitate their inclusion into every fight, leaving other classes high and dry. Please make sure that "requiring" a specific class and/or job doesn't happen for any party makeup. I am tired of seeing the "Archers only Batraal Run" and "Lancer only Ifrit run."
  
• THM Abl. 2 Increases range of next spell. Needs to be reworked. See my description why above.
  

Personal Thoughts


I feel BLM has a strong identity and purpose in battle. WHM will clearly still predominantly heal, but simply spamming Cure/Protect/Shell is quite boring and dull. WHM needs more active and impactful skills for a stronger allure.

I feel the lack of mage spells is a result of a lack of mage classes. Cross class abilities are a strong point of the armory system. Physical damage classes can pretty much interchange their skills as they'd like. Unfortunately since there are only two related mage classes, we lack that option. The addition of Arcanist/Geomancer WILL add more cross class abilities to choose from. Unfortunately we'll have to wait a bit longer to see those abilities. I imagine water will be in that skill set, and we'll see the addition of raw debuffs and enhancements from the Arcanist class as well. In the recent interviews, Yoshi has also alluded to other mage classes being included before Musketeer even. This means we may see another mage class, adding yet another set of cross class abiliites that will round out mages. Does that mean every mage has to level up each mage class? No, but it will certainly be nice to have CHOICES finally as to what you want your character to end up as with a RELATED skill set. Mages have no business leveling physical damage classes, and physical damage classes likewise have no business leveling mage classes. [I am fully against melee dps having cure FYI... sadly I think this is a tactic that has been ingrained too deep in the mechanics of the game to just remove it.]