[dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

[Malakhim]

All I'm gonna say is that I'm 100% fine with all of the changes outlined. I kind of hope they alter the lore for CON and THM in game to placate those people who are upset about it, but I think it still fits well enough as is.

Conjurers commune with the spirits of the world, the elementals. I imagine that generally means Earth, Wind, and Water. Yes, there have to be elementals for Fire, Thunder, and Ice, but those are generally elements of destruction rather than creation. For example, that kid angers the elementals of the Black Shroud by using: You guessed it, fire.

So I think it makes sense for Conjurer to get the Earth and Wind nukes while focusing on the healing and protecting. Maybe they'll make cures Water-Elemental, but failing that I feel like Conjurer could definitely get a Water nuke later on.

I'll admit I don't know much about Thaumaturge lore, but they've always seemed to be more on the Black-Mage end of the spectrum.

PUG/MNK sounds awesome. Options to use MP to enhance their attacks against a variety of elemental weaknesses, or just adding more physical attacks (kicks) if they aren't fighting something with a weakness they can exploit. MP tight? Don't use those buffs till you get back to a stable condition. Seems like it'll be a lot of fun, plus MNK looked flat out awesome in the concept art.

LNC/DRG also looks fun. Glass cannon with TP management, plus what appears to be a Fire-Breath attack. The Fire Breath alone is enough to make me want to play it.

I can see Arcanist becoming the main enfeebling class when it's implemented. So I'm not too worried about that. GLA and MRD look like I expected them to.

Still waiting for info on BLU and THF! (I know they haven't even been metioned, but I still want them. >:\ )

That's a pretty good way to look at the distribution of spells between the classes.

Yoshi-P also mentioned during an interview that Arcanist would be a class revolving around the use of land traps and maybe buffs. Maybe all the debuff spells are going to Arcanist? He also mentioned albeit maybe a bit informally that the job that would go along with Arcanist would be Geomancer probably.

Unfortunately we have to wait on THF, since he said he wanted to focus on creating more mage classes first, which probably means adding Arcanist/Geomancer? and a pet class (Tamer/Summoner?) before adding more melee. I also want my THF and NIN.

[Yelta_Sumasu]

There has been some confusion about the most recent class abilities post. I think the abilities posted replace our current abilities completely, others believe that the new post is additional to what we have today...

I know I am not the only person to think that the posted abilities replace what I have today based on the posts I am reading here. However I'm 3 to 1 and losing that argument in my LS's.

What do you think?

[Cale_Imrik]

They're being replaced with the new ones..Otherwise PGL will have 2 Blindsides and 2 Second Winds, despite them saying they were removing tiers.

[Yelta_Sumasu]

That's what I thought.... but couldn't make a good enough case to my LS...

[Mihana]

I'll admit I don't know much about Thaumaturge lore, but they've always seemed to be more on the Black-Mage end of the spectrum.

My THM is only up to 31 so far yet from what I had seen nothing ever mentioned the elementals in their studies. Thaumaturgy dealt with life, death, and controlling the aspects of these two. They heavily believed in religion (Nald and Thal, it being that when you died, you went on to rest in Thal's realm.) and had the potential to manipulate life. In fact they had means of resurrecting the dead through forbidden arts. Basically, a Thaumaturge would fit the roles of a Dark Knight (Like a THM/GLA combo.) or even a Necromancer. Acts of using conjury (IE elemental spells) weren't ever in their storyline.

[Tibian]

Going to take a small step back from the bickering and moaning to provide some constructive posting.

Mage ONLY 1.20 and 1.21 revisions review

The Good

• Black Mage magic combos: The magic combos really seem to be a strong point for black mages. This type of creative implementation of debuffing is a strong suit for THM/BLM that should be expanded on in the future.
• Cross class abilities: Mages are going to level up another mage class. It makes logical sense to, so why not? With cross class abilities, BLM will have every element at their disposal (excluding water, which I'll get to in a small disclaimer [1] at the end.).
• Black mage identity: I feel Black mage and nuking casters have a very prominent identity with the class changes.
• Enmity control: with CNJ/THM skill swapping only, mages will finally (hopefully) have a way to control enmity at their own discretion, especially when things get hairy in battle.
• PLD Ability 2: This ability puts a HoT on those around the Paladin when the PLD receives a cure. This is a fantastic skill for mages/healers. (Slight disclaimer [2] with it though.) I love the uniquness of this ability and how it plays off literally the ENTIRE party mechanics. Not only is it great for topping off melee DPS, but it includes coordination for healers to say, "Hey, the DPS needs topped off, pop x ability." I'd LOVE to see more of these creative spells/abilities added for every class.
  
  Disclaimer [1]: Water may be an ability reserved for Arcanist/Geomancer. After all, they need to give Arcanist a way to attack and level up.
  
  Disclaimer [2]: The Paladin Ability 2 may lead to an overbearing necessity for PLD only tanks. While I /personally/ don't hate this particular example, I would hate to be in the situation where I was excluded from a party because I was a tank, just not PLD. IE: Requiring gladiator leveled for sentinel is ridiculous: same concept. This again falls in the XI situation of excluding classes for specific roles. I don't think that is a healthy way to encourage class diversity. With that being said, a possible fix to this solution would be to simply give WHM an exclusive skill that casts an HoT on all party members in range of the target, and give PLD something else.

The Questionable/Semi-OK

• Traits: I don't think we can have a proper review of skills unless the traits come out with them. I understand they may not be in a condition to reveal at the moment. More ACTIVE and IMPACTFUL traits should be encouraged and implemented.
• Raw debuffs missing:I am actually a big proponent of debuffs in MMO's. I think they encourage different types of gameplay depending on the group makeup and scenario of the battle. Unfortunately, raw debuffs have completely vanished and instead have been implemented via combos. I love this inclusion, but I think each mage class should probably have one or two raw debuffs to simply round out casting.
• Too few spells?: I am drawn to love simplicity in everything. Sadly, I feel the mage classes feel slightly empty still. Two to three more skills per mage class would probably make me feel 100% welcoming of the incoming changes. Raw debuffs maybe? With that being said, these changes feel welcome and appropriate.
  
  

The Undesirable

• PLD Ability 2: This ability scares me into thinking Paladins will necessarily be desired and/or required over Warriors for tanking. I think this will flesh itself out eventually after we see how PLD/WAR mechanics fully work, I just want to draw caution to it now.
• BRD Magic 1: I don't want to see this ability mandating the inclusion of bards into every single party I am in. I understand that there are plenty of MP regeneration tactics now, and with the alchemy revisions I imagine that Ethers will be more potent and useful. Sadly, if MP regeneration really becomes an issue, this ability by itself will solidify Bards as a requirement. Please make sure this is a BALANCED spell, that doesn't make or break a fight.
• WHM Magic DPS Combo Debuffs: WHM are supposed to cure, buff, and maintain overall party survival. I really don't want my WHM attacking to debuff a target when they should be saving that mana for heals. If you want to make WHM more unique, give them more active moves such as a 10 second buff to the target that substantially increases defense or evasion. Or a self buff that increases healing potency for the next 15 seconds. I feel CNJ/WHM uniqueness is severely lacking compared to THM/BLM. Please rectify this with more active and impactful WHM/Healing skills. CURE, CURAGA, and REGEN, will not suffice. One to two more active healing spells should be appropriate. I have made a suggestion in the suggestions for a great spell based on the bard spells.
• THM Abl. 2:Increases range of next spell. I don't understand this at all. I can see this being used maybe once in 1000 casts. This also might be an EXTREMELY situational move where the boss casts an AoE mega move (Hellfire) in which the mages (both healers and nukers) could avoid by stepping out of the AoE range and continue nuking/healing for ONE spell. I just don't see this being a valid spell/ability at all. It is by far too situational and uterly useless to be included. As of right now I do feel this is a wasted slot for something that could be significantly better, such as a raw debuff or buff such as haste/slow/paralyze. I strongly encourage reworking this ability.
• Regen being tied to enhancing magic aka: VITALITY STAT. WholieWho has posted that Regen was considered enhancing magic in XI and may work the same with these revisions. I'd like to say now that enhancing magic is broken as far as statistics are considered. Unless there are drastic changes to how enhancing and enfeebling potencies work, I strongly recommend keeping regen tied to healing potency. Enhancing magic should not be tied to vitality, it should be attached to mind. Piety should be removed as a base stat, and enfeeble should be attached to INT. Raw MP can be split between MND and INT. The 'tiered' system for enhancing and enfeebling magics simply dictate that it isn't worth the cost/benefit trade-off to socket your gear for enhancing/enfeebling versus healing potency, MATK potency, MACC, or even raw MP.

Suggestions

• Add another WHM magic spell: I'd like to see an additional WHM skill the following:"Gradually restores the HP of all party members within range." I think an AoE HP Hot would be very welcome for WHM identity. Sometimes a direct Cure/Curaga just seems inefficient. This would clearly require a relatively high cooldown and would be situational for topping off the entire party over time.
  
• Demanding classes for specific fights: It appears this list of changes has THEORETICALLY made the requirement for leveling unrelated classes less important. This is a good thing. I just want to suggest that specifically the BRD Mag 1 and PLD ability 2 scare me. These skills have the potential to necessitate their inclusion into every fight, leaving other classes high and dry. Please make sure that "requiring" a specific class and/or job doesn't happen for any party makeup. I am tired of seeing the "Archers only Batraal Run" and "Lancer only Ifrit run."
  
• THM Abl. 2 Increases range of next spell. Needs to be reworked. See my description why above.
  

Personal Thoughts


I feel BLM has a strong identity and purpose in battle. WHM will clearly still predominantly heal, but simply spamming Cure/Protect/Shell is quite boring and dull. WHM needs more active and impactful skills for a stronger allure.

I feel the lack of mage spells is a result of a lack of mage classes. Cross class abilities are a strong point of the armory system. Physical damage classes can pretty much interchange their skills as they'd like. Unfortunately since there are only two related mage classes, we lack that option. The addition of Arcanist/Geomancer WILL add more cross class abilities to choose from. Unfortunately we'll have to wait a bit longer to see those abilities. I imagine water will be in that skill set, and we'll see the addition of raw debuffs and enhancements from the Arcanist class as well. In the recent interviews, Yoshi has also alluded to other mage classes being included before Musketeer even. This means we may see another mage class, adding yet another set of cross class abiliites that will round out mages. Does that mean every mage has to level up each mage class? No, but it will certainly be nice to have CHOICES finally as to what you want your character to end up as with a RELATED skill set. Mages have no business leveling physical damage classes, and physical damage classes likewise have no business leveling mage classes. [I am fully against melee dps having cure FYI... sadly I think this is a tactic that has been ingrained too deep in the mechanics of the game to just remove it.]

[HoolieWho]

Add another WHM magic spell: I'd like to see an additional WHM skill the following:"Gradually restores the HP of all party members within range." I think an AoE HP Hot would be very welcome for WHM identity. Sometimes a direct Cure/Curaga just seems inefficient. This would clearly require a relatively high cooldown and would be situational for topping off the entire party over time.

In FFXI Regen was considered enhancing magic.

CNJ Abl. 1 Grants AoE to next enhancing magic spell, but increases cast time.

WHM Mag. 2 O Gradually restores the target's HP.

[Betelgeuzah]

BRD Magic 1: I don't want to see this ability mandating the inclusion of bards into every single party I am in. I understand that there are plenty of MP regeneration tactics now, and with the alchemy revisions I imagine that Ethers will be more potent and useful. Sadly, if MP regeneration really becomes an issue, this ability by itself will solidify Bards as a requirement. Please make sure this is a BALANCED spell, that doesn't make or break a fight.

Of course it has to make or break the fight. Just like not having a tank, healer, or DD would.

This only applies to encounters that matter though.

[MaxWinter]

looking forward to see how this changes things going forward.

[Spellbinder]

Why are you using blanket terms to speak for the whole game? We were told from the very first announcement that this system was designed so that people could exceed in certain roles for more challenging content in large groups, whilst people who wanted small-group and solo content would still be good at it with the original classes.

I'm well aware what the purpose of these jobs are. I asked that question to make a point, because I know someone is going to ask that question.

Edit:

As I've been saying before, yes the Jobs are "specialized roles" but the classes themselves have also been specialized. If the only difference in the end is that the Jobs are essentially classes but can fulfill those roles better, who's to say people aren't going to start getting uppity and refusing people as classes and demand jobs even small group content?

Just trying to get people to consider possible reactions to game changes. No need to try and berate me for offering what will potentially be an opposing view.