Harder Dungeons

[Deliciou5]

I want to see either a savage-lite version of 4 man dungeons or the current version of 50+ dungeons being made into 8 man version and kinda getting a savage treatement where we see new mechanics and such from normal mobs/bosses(expert dungeons is a joke in terms of difficulty). It doesn't have to be as hard as savage since your going through multiple bosses, but i do want to see actual dungeons at end game and not just boss fights. 24 man is the only time i feel like we get this type of content and i would like to see more in the form of smaller groups.

Edited 2/15/18:
So my idea overall:
1..Higher level gear that is limited like weekly tomestones like how alliance raids give tokens.
2.Give weekly tomestones like any other dungeon just slightly more.
3. High level version of farming for crafting materials,glamour,possibly mounts,materia,etc.(Since it would be more challenging the rewards will be harder to obtain and therefore it will help control the market.
4. Trash mobs would have significant more HP and be more dangerous and maybe have one or two abilties that are similar to a raid mechanic.(Stack for split dmg, tethers to other mobs, prey, charge ability with prey(t10),etc.)
5. Special treasure chests would drop with temporary bonuses like extra time,attack power, defense,re-raise effect(to automatically raise players once if they die that last until used) higher quality treasure for next boss chest opened.
6. Treasure Chests would have multiple tiers(bronze,silver,gold,mythril,etc) to make certain materials and materia more rare to control the market and make it worth doing multiple times to keep population for this possible type of content or roullette high.The further you get in dungeon you far more likely to get upgrades to your treasure through normal mobs.
7.Quality of treasure is also based on how times you wipe on a boss, bosses won't have enrage and be more forgiving so you usually only wipe due to boss mechanics.However bosses will still be pretty challenging. but since there is no enrage you can still save a fight no matter what no matter how raises are thrown out which will make things more interesting and you only truly lost when you given up or have raisers left.
8.Final bosses will obviously be way harder than previous bosses in dungeon , and will drop very good high quality materials and gear, but will drop more chests,gil,and special items like mounts and whatnot based on overall performance in dungeon and just particularly on this boss.
9.The biggest enemy is not any boss or mob, its the timer, with no enrage for bosses it is really a matter of racing to the finish and getting a clear moreso than spending 30 tries on one boss, as long as you can keep your party up you can eventually beat them. I think it would be a interesting balance and be very similar to how 4 man boss format is but a savage light version.

These are just a few ideas that could make these dungeons more challenging but there is things in place to make things easier as well as upgrades that are similar to pomanders from palace of the dead and whatnot to edge things in your favor and undo losses(make treasure quality higher). These are just some of the things i think would make a unique and interesting experience and not just another dungeon run. Think all the 50+ 4 man dungeons could easily be retooled for this purpose in a interesting way, and even though the content would being reused there is enough new mechanics and approaches and things worthwhile that i think people would still very much enjoy it.

[Rongway]

i do want to see actual dungeons at end game and not just boss fights. 24 man is the only time i feel like we get this type of content and i would like to see more in the form of smaller groups.

I'm confused by this statement.

Normal dungeons are trash-bosh-trash-bosh-trash-boss. Most alliance raids are trash-bosh-trash-bosh-trash-boss-boss, or perhaps trash-bosswipe-boss-trash-bosswipe-boss-trash-boss-boss. They're the same, but with even more boss fights. In what way would making dungeons more like alliance raids satisfy your desire for content that isn't just bosses?

[Wintersandman]

I'm confused by this statement.

He was referring to Omega/Sigmascape. Where you zone in at it is Boss. But I don't know if he participated in HW or Coil. Where it was trash, miniboss, trash, boss like BC1 or trash, boss. Honestly the trash is just a distraction to keep people in there longer. I agree with your assesment overall to the OP.

OP, they did this, it didn't change anything as people found the best way to skip it, sac pull, or mass pull it. Praetorium is a perfect example of PULL everything to the gate and then go to next zone, pull everything to lock and kill, then do next pull to gate and zone, then pull everything to lock and kill, then kill boss, then pull everything to next gate, kill, hop in magitek and everything you didn't kill from pulls 1 and 3 reset. then it is zerg to boss, kill boss, kill boss, kill boss, kill boss and ignore adds, and overkill boss while he still continues to cast shadow flare.

Boom 8 man dungeon excitement. I personally prefer the no frills, lets get down to business and skip the trash.

[Deliciou5]

He was referring to Omega/Sigmascape. Where you zone in at it is Boss. But I don't know if he participated in HW or Coil. Where it was trash, miniboss, trash, boss like BC1 or trash, boss. Honestly the trash is just a distraction to keep people in there longer. I agree with your assesment overall to the OP.

OP, they did this, it didn't change anything as people found the best way to skip it, sac pull, or mass pull it. Praetorium is a perfect example of PULL everything to the gate and then go to next zone, pull everything to lock and kill, then do next pull to gate and zone, then pull everything to lock and kill, then kill boss, then pull everything to next gate, kill, hop in magitek and everything you didn't kill from pulls 1 and 3 reset. then it is zerg to boss, kill boss, kill boss, kill boss, kill boss and ignore adds, and overkill boss while he still continues to cast shadow flare.

Boom 8 man dungeon excitement. I personally prefer the no frills, lets get down to business and skip the trash.

I played all the raids, and no im not talking about raiding i am talking about harder dungeons. Looking for mid-core content, just looking for harder content than what we have instead of boss fights. Want something more substantial than just having all the mobs be push over easy. Alliance fills that need somewhat but in the end i want something akin to it on a smaller group scale. Binding Coil was very meh at best. Maybe dungeons akin to mythic dungeons from WoW or something to that effect.

[Shouko]

That's a lot more work for them to do at this point, they have issues just balancing the current content. WoW has a bigger team of people to do these things and is balanced around 5 people instead of 4. There's a lot more in the game that needs to be addressed beyond a harder set of 4 man dungeons.

[Alien_Gamer]

Create a PF for a minimum item level sync run.

[Deliciou5]

Create a PF for a minimum item level sync run.

How is that a part of current progression or a latest piece of content that rewards you current tometones? How does that add new mechanics to bosses that i wanted, and the only reason i suggested to possibly to reuse old dungeons/bosses was to save them on time and money and give us something more challenging for smaller parties. You need to add insentives to do these types of things like they do with roullette so the wait times are NOT atrocious. What i want is a newer form of content. According to your logic...why do sigmascape savage? just do sigmascape normal at min item level if you want a more challenging sigmascape. What im suggesting is savage light for 4 man dungeons, more challenging mid-core content. Don't know why people would think this would be hard to add or a waste of time, other games do it...and they are wildly successful with the playerbase and have become staple(mythic dungeons from WoW).

I'm confused by this statement.

Normal dungeons are trash-bosh-trash-bosh-trash-boss. Most alliance raids are trash-bosh-trash-bosh-trash-boss-boss, or perhaps trash-bosswipe-boss-trash-bosswipe-boss-trash-boss-boss. They're the same, but with even more boss fights. In what way would making dungeons more like alliance raids satisfy your desire for content that isn't just bosses?

I want more challenging content than expert for smaller groups. Maybe a savage version with new mechanics for trash mobs and bosses and newer and challenging mechanics such as increased spawns and savage light mechanics for trash mobs( just simple things such as tethers or more esunaing or aoe abilties where you need to stack) to make trash more than just trash, and then have harder versions of bosses that has added mechanics that savage would have, but there is no enrage and is not as hard.


I think having 8 man versions of 4 man dungeons would be interesting and give maybe high level crafting materials, materia, and cataylsts and maybe have weekly tomestone level gear to drop and you can only get 1 after you beat final boss once per week but you can still go in for tomes and materials and materia. Maybe the quality of chests drop based on on how tries it takes to beat a boss, and how many special chests upgrades like extra time or treeasure quality increase you would get off very hard or named trash mobs.

So my idea overall:
1.Higher level gear that is limited like weekly tomestones like how alliance raids give tokens.
2.Give weekly tomestones like any other dungeon just slightly more.
3. High level version of farming for crafting materials,glamour,possibly mounts,materia,etc.(Since it would be more challenging the rewards will be harder to obtain and therefore it will help control the market.
4. Trash mobs would have significant more HP and be more dangerous and maybe have one or two abilties that are similar to a raid mechanic.(Stack for split dmg, tethers to other mobs, prey, charge ability with prey(t10),etc.)
5. Special treasure chests would drop with temporary bonuses like extra time,attack power, defense,re-raise effect(to automatically raise players once if they die that last until used) higher quality treasure for next boss chest opened.
6. Treasure Chests would have multiple tiers(bronze,silver,gold,mythril,etc) to make certain materials and materia more rare to control the market and make it worth doing multiple times to keep population for this possible type of content or roullette high.The further you get in dungeon you far more likely to get upgrades to your treasure through normal mobs.
7.Quality of treasure is also based on how times you wipe on a boss, bosses won't have enrage and be more forgiving so you usually only wipe due to boss mechanics.However bosses will still be pretty challenging. but since there is no enrage you can still save a fight no matter what no matter how raises are thrown out which will make things more interesting and you only truly lost when you given up or have raisers left.
8.Final bosses will obviously be way harder than previous bosses in dungeon and will possibly have an enrage, and will drop very good high quality materials and gear, but will drop more chests,gil,and special items like mounts and whatnot based on overall performance in dungeon and just particularly on this boss.
9.The biggest enemy is not any boss or mob, its the timer, with no enrage for bosses it is really a matter of racing to the finish and getting a clear moreso than spending 30 tries on one boss, as long as you can keep your party up you can eventually beat them. I think it would be a interesting balance and be very similar to how 4 man boss format is but a savage light version.


These are just a few ideas that could make these dungeons more challenging but there is things in place to make things easier as well as upgrades that are similar to pomanders from palace of the dead and whatnot to edge things in your favor and undo losses(make treasure quality higher). These are just some of the things i think would make a unique and interesting experience and not just another dungeon run. Think all the 50+ 4 man dungeons could easily be retooled for this purpose in a interesting way, and even though the content would being reused there is enough new mechanics and approaches and things worthwhile that i think people would still very much enjoy it.

[Wintersandman]

I guess I am confused on what types of mechanics you are looking for. Some of the previous leveling dungeons had cool mechanics. Sunken Temple of Qarn had some cool effects and we just had a rolling ball in the 65 dungeon with a boss that was focused on all sorts of mechanics. I don't see what Alliance raids are fulfilling that the current dungeon content is not.

[Deliciou5]

I updated my op and the last post to be more specific about my idea and how they could retool older content to be more interesting and be more like actual end game dungeon than just simple boss fights by themselves.It is similar to alliance raids but is required to be more precisely skilled with smaller groups than the chaos that is alliance raids.Also unqiue rewards and mechanics when it comes to progression gear that is gotten from these dungeons won't be upgradeable like tomestone gear.It's not like i am asking for 24 man savage, the developers said it would require too much skill to beat from too many people, but i think this format would be excellent for 8 man and fill a need for mid core content. Harder than expert but not on savage omega/alex/coil level since there is no enrage your biggest enemy is your timer, but you can get special chest rewards to circumvent that and add more time and other buffs.So yes its challenging but then there is stuff that gives you a temporary edge as well and eases up the difficulty a little bit...but you can easily waste these rewards due to wipes and other things, just because you got an edge doesn't mean there is no mechanics and it becomes easy mode.

[Trensharo]

I guess I am confused on what types of mechanics you are looking for.

It's not about the specifics - the developers can decide on those - it's about the fact that he wants more difficult content for mid-core group progression that isn't completely face roll.

WoW's Mythic+ dungeons do what the OP is asking for. They've on a different level compared to FFXIV dungeons, and are the gold standard for MMORPG dungeon design, IMHO. They also give casual players (or those in Guilds who cannot form 20 man raids consistently) a viable progression path - especially with Tier Sets going away next expansion).

Trash and full dungeon zones for raids facilitate story telling. The "new" Kararzhan dungeon they added wouldn't have been nearly as fun or challenging without the trash. There is nothing satisfying about zoning into a boss room, unless you're only concerned with your parse, your kill times (Server/World 1st), etc.

Clearing trash also gives you time to... socialize with others. Presumably that's a big reason why people may choose to play an MMORPG. And by socialize, I mean outside of barking orders at them during a boss encounter. This whole experience was designed to strike a balance - a balance that has been lost in most recent games, resulting in gameplay that feels more and more "single-player" or "disconnected" (other group members mind as well be Mercs/AIs, in most cases).