Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[Feyona]

It really is a useful tool to check the amount of abilities you are using in a certain fight compared to other Scholars and also the amount of casts you can fit in the fight (and your activity %) combined with your overheal %. For example, in A9S you're not using Eye for an Eye or Deployment Tactics which are extremely useful abilities in preventing your tank and other party members from taking damage. Learning to use these abilities to your benefit will offer you much more opportunities to do DPS. In most cases your opportunities for DPS follow from your own actions, not from the skill of your group members.[/QUOTE] Surely its a2 way thing or does the healer carry the group and make up for badly playing dps as well? Such alot for one party member.

[randysquirrel]

I find it odd that people have said healers shouldn't have to play "two roles" ie healer and dps.

Any decent group has everyone using all of their utility, storm's path, delirium, virus, e4e, apoc, res, mantra, second wind, ward, wall, clemency, stoneskin, mug, etc all of which you could argue are pseudo-healing, as mitigation obv reduces the healing required

Everyone should be using everything at their disposal, including healer dps, to make the fight go as smoothly and as quickly as possible.

Everyone has the same responsibility to learn a fight - dps to know how to plan their rotations around boss jumps and other mechs, tanks to know when they need to be in tank stance and appropriate CDs for when the big hits are coming, and similarly heals to know when to dps and when they'll need to be full healing. heals don't have it hareder than anyone else, everyone needs to know the fight equally

[Taika]

Surely its a2 way thing or does the healer carry the group and make up for badly playing dps as well? Such alot for one party member.

Healer's job is not to carry the group or make up for the mistakes or underperforming of others. Healer's job is to do their own part to play as effectively and be as useful as possible for their group in each situation. The job is the same for each party member, the way to do it is just different for each job.

Everyone should be using everything at their disposal, including healer dps, to make the fight go as smoothly and as quickly as possible.

Everyone has the same responsibility to learn a fight - dps to know how to plan their rotations around boss jumps and other mechs, tanks to know when they need to be in tank stance and appropriate CDs for when the big hits are coming, and similarly heals to know when to dps and when they'll need to be full healing. heals don't have it hareder than anyone else, everyone needs to know the fight equally

Exactly this.

[Feyona]

Healer's job is not to carry the group or make up for the mistakes or underperforming of others. Healer's job is to do their own part to play as effectively and be as useful as possible for their group in each situation. The job is the same for each party member, the way to do it is just different for each job.


Exactly this.

Agree entirely, except thatscholar has much more they are expected to do. Plus an amount of pressure to stance dance while trying to keep people alive. Party dies if scholar makes mistake with cs not true of underperforming dps.

[Taika]

Agree entirely, except thatscholar has much more they are expected to do. Plus an amount of pressure to stance dance while trying to keep people alive. Party dies if scholar makes mistake with cs not true of underperforming dps.

Party also dies if DDs don't manage to beat DPS check requirements (for example individual DPS checks in the first phase of A8S) or if they mess up movement or mechanics in the way that cause the rest of the group to die (this was very strongly present in A3S, for example). All roles have a lot responsibility.

[Cynfael]

Agree entirely, except thatscholar has much more they are expected to do. Plus an amount of pressure to stance dance while trying to keep people alive. Party dies if scholar makes mistake with cs not true of underperforming dps.

This is a little dramatic, no? If parties are dying simply because their healer (especially SCH) misjudged their CS timing or fat-fingered the icon, something else is very wrong.

I literally can't remember the last time my use of CS caused anyone to die. If the healer is at least "average", virtually all player deaths will be the result of severe player error like DPS standing in cleaving tankbusters or in overlapping AoEs (i.e. things that can take players instantly from 100 to 0).

[Feyona]

This is a little dramatic, no? If parties are dying simply because their healer (especially SCH) misjudged their CS timing or fat-fingered the icon, something else is very wrong.

I literally can't remember the last time my use of CS caused anyone to die. If the healer is at least "average", virtually all player deaths will be the result of severe player error like DPS standing in cleaving tankbusters or in overlapping AoEs (i.e. things that can take players instantly from 100 to 0).

This is true because the other healer ( or main healer) is meant to potentially be able to handle this but sometimes are in trouble, making it necessary to quickly drop out cs anh hopefully heal in time. On top of this the thing sometimes gliches. My experiences of handling cs in current content is not an enjpyable one

[Feyona]

Hope there are no misunderstangs here. I tried to make a point that its easir to manage in low content. I can do this but a 10s, sophia ex and the like are instances where the window is often too tight to handle, and it should not be forced on people that have average abilities, Unfortunately, because of the few advanced players that can do it it is being forced on all. I would like scholar to be viewed more of ahealing class than a dps, which it actually is. I have had some bad experiences resulting from my ability to dps, because its 'in my toolkit'.

[Anzuul]

Throwing my 2cents here because some stuff is annoying to read at some point.

When I play as healer, I'm not here to babysit players not being careful about easily avoidable mechanics. I'm not here to be ready to keep you alive at all cost because you fucked up something you shouldn't have.
Babysitting players like that just make they think they can mess up because someone will always be here to patch them up because it's their job. When I play as a healer I know when party wide aoes and busters will come, I disable CS and heal acordingly.
You messed up ? Let me finish my cast 1st and disable CS to throw you a simple cure/physics/regen so you survive if you open your eyes. CS is on CD ? well if you fucked up twice in 5s then it's not my problem, you should have been more attentive, and except for certain jobs (MCH *cough*), you might have a self heal available if your case is an emergency.

I won't babysit a player that ignore half of mechanics, they are imho a waste of mana and CD. You don't want to pay attention ? Fine, I'm not your parachute. I won't favour a single player when others are focused enough to play well while this guy is being lazy/distracted/watching netflix.
You died once because of an avoidable mechanic ? Well np shit happens, I'll raise you and heal you to 100% as soon as i have a window to raise safely.
You died twice ? You might wait for my swiftcast to be available.
You died three times ? You know what, I wasted like 6k mana on you and you are licking the floor because you refuse to pay attention. Stay that way (ofc i'm not a horrible person, if this guy is a sprout or a 1st timer i'll raise him if i have enough mana)

Yes it might feel harsh for many of you. Maybe you'll tell me I'm a bad healer and I forget my role.
I want to clarify some points : I heal when necessary. I'll never chose to dps and activate CS when i know there will be a party-wide aoe or a tank buster. I won't maintain players to 100% at all costs if the next mechanic doesn't need me to. Party drops to 50% ? Lemme throw a regen and i get back to dps.
I see healing as a support job. A caster who has the ability to heal. I'm not the kind priestress role who loves nature and life and look at the flowers waiting for something to happen, healing every boo-boo.
I see more and more healers dealing 0 dmg and just stand here in every duty. Yesterday, I was in Garuda HM as a whm and my co healer was a 270 whm. We both threw a regen on the MT (that was wayyy enough to keep him alive) and I started dpsing. MT's health was really stable around 90% with both of our regens. What was my co-healer doing ? Nothing. Staring at HP bars, watching netflix, I don't know, but you won't tell me he was feeling insecure.
Sometimes I even see whm/diurnal ast throwing party wide regen + a regen on the tank + spamming cure/benefic ! (one even took aggro over the MT and wondered why (he was wearing a full shire set))
I cringe every time I see a scholar spamming physick as soon as the tank looses 1k hp, ruining his fairy's main ability, or spamming adlo.

I know SCH have a lot of abilities, but you'll never use all of them at once. You have your pet abilities and aetherflow abilities and they are SITUATIONNAL. They are oGCD you can use three times in 1min in the case of Aetherflow, not that overwhelming in my opinion. Next you have a dispell, a basic cure, a single target and a party wide shield, a dps toolkit with DoTs and a Broil you can spam when you don't need to refresh your DoTs.
Then you have situationnal buffs to increase your healing and spread your shields. Your lowest CD on your fairy is 60s when you play eos, 40s when you play selene.

I'll never harass a healer who doesn't do dps even if it makes me cringe. However in low level dungeons/PoTD when the healer is not a sprout and afk with his fairy or overhealing, I'll ask them kindly to help us and faster the run (i do that whatever my role is).

[RiisWolf]

CS is not used to make up any deficit on DPS

Funny at how Savage raiders use CS to actually make up for deficit DPS which they've commonly brought onto themselves by entering at entry level or below, in addition to DPS play safe so much they could never push, and consequently never hope to win without healer's hand holding them through the number game. Some of those same players opt out into healing jobs instead of DPS to avoid the obnoxious timers, set ups, and technical junk that in someway in the boss fight will get in the way of doing the most you can do ,most importantly, and those fights baby them so much you can get away with attacking the vast majority of the time as early as week 1. WEEK 1. This problem got worse in Gordias Savage because SE not only foolishly released it before anyone had normal alex gear, but that because of STR tanks, it was baby damage AND they overtuned the DPS requirements, intending nobody would beat it as soon as world's first did. Even with better gear, more power, and more time, to this mob it's just week 1. Week 1 where the DPS are complacent and the healers hold their hands to the finish line.

Then those same players bleed into the main game, telling newbies they are expected to attack and/or ignore healing, which leads to sloppy play. And just so you know, sloppy is too careless and unsystematic, not lazy, not underwhelming, and not whatever silly thing whomever it is you're following likes to tack onto.

Some of us DO use CS to join the fray at ZERO expense of the party in dungeons, but guess what! Many more believe they're using CS for a whole other thing: cause they HAVE to, cause some popular guy told them to, all while not knowing any better.

I use CS WHEN my DPS group is on top of it's game. Not the other way around.

Don't lie. You'll use it even when the DPS isn't on their game at all. Oh the DPS sucks; this fight is going so slow. I'll shower them with stones and holy to speed things along. It's too not fun to not use holy even if the damage the party's been taking is so intense, they might die if I take 5 seconds off healing to attack.

Also you said you want quicker results. You don't get quicker results if you attack ONLY when the DPS doesn't suck. And because of this mob and people like you, that number of DPS who are still complacent, clueless and can't know how to do their best NEVER changed, while there's so many more healers playing pretend DPS just to feel special as they get into dungeons faster than the actual DPS. And some of us are getting real sick of it.