Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[Kally5680]

I just wanted to throw my two cents in as someone who plays WHM regularly. As far as I'm concerned, if a mob dies faster because I'm dpsing, thats less incoming damage I need to heal. More exclusive to WHM, if I have an enemy stunlocked with holy, I am mitigating incoming damage and reducing the burden on both the tank and myself, which is keeping the party alive and fulfilling my role as healer.
The devs would not have given us dps moves (why does Assize deal damage as well? So you have the choice to use it offensively or defensively) if they didn't want us to use them. That being said, at the end of the day, while I am all for dpsing as a healer, everyone has a different playstyle and if someone is more comfortable spending less or no time in Cleric stance, while it should not be encouraged, I do not think people should be penalised or hassled for it.

[Feyona]

great healer (someone with quick reactions who does not learn a fight will not be as successful in the end as someone who reacts more slowly but learns the script and plans their actions accordingly).[/QUOTE] You say that its meant for anyone to be able to clear content, lack of ability etc. but then expect someone to be able to plan the fight etc. To know what comes next does need practice. Then, there is the fact that everyone is different, I may want to train for the olympics but no amount of training is necessarily going to make me a gold medalist. I find changing stances difficult because of the tight window, that it has a cd, and that someone is often dying just as I go into it. Again I have to repeat not everyone understands it takes time to know a fight but people expect you to cs dance immediatey.

[magnanimousCynic]

When did I complain about people having nothing to do?? Please show a quote of me saying that.

I think I'm done with this thread now. The insanity in general has gone on for far too long and the troll OP hasn't said anything in this thread since the first post (or anything in general for the past month). But before I go I'll give my final thoughts.

My stance on healer DPS is this:

DPS is great. If you can heal and also be able to help the team by DPSing, go you. If you're not yet confidant in doing DPS than that's ok! You don't need to be a DPS god on the second attempt you do something. It takes time, attentiveness, and memorization of the fight's rotation to know the best times to safely go into Cleric Stance and help contribute DPS as safely as possible. Even if you're still not ready to DPS then it's okay, because that gives me more time to DPS .

But the instant you, random person in DF, tell me that I shouldn't do DPS and I should just play a DPS job to do damage, then you're officially on my "Do Not Heal" list.

[Feyona]

When did I complain about people having nothing to do?? Please show a quote of me saying that.

.

Oh not you specifically, ' you' means everyone on this thread who has said it

[AmeliaVerves]

A9n is... sorry, but I am literally able to solo heal A12n and I am no main heal at all. Never had to practice as a scholar, because with every AST and every WHM I have ever paired up in DF I always stayed in CS as long as everything went well and just left it when the party started messing up mechanics and started dying.
Guess what? If everyone did the mechanics right and noone screwed it, you could enter A9s and A10s with just one healer and everything would go pretty awesome. So tell me again that overhealing is not a thing in this game...

You don't want to DPS as a healer? Thats totally fine, but don't expect everyone to like your playstyle and dont expect everyone to be super kind and nice if you are not using your whole toolkit and are leaving out casts and spells just because you are not "comfortable" to use them. You wouldn't agree with a BLM saying he will only use Scathe, because he is not comfortable with casting spells and not being able to move. Same goes for a BRD not using Wanderer's Minuet, right? Refusing to make 20% more damage, because they are not "comfortable" with it. Fine, but don't be surprised if you get kicked out of groups.
It is a huge problem a lot of insecure healers hide behind the excuse of not wanting to play "two roles at once", because you are not playing two roles. It is one toolkit. Your toolkit. You don't want to use it properly? Maybe you should watch and try out for other classes then. (Of course you all are free to play whatever you want and how you want, but you have to live with the fact you might be yelled at or kicked then, because some people want to optimize their gameplay and want others to do the same. Therefore you are playing against their aim.)

Just to mention again, I am not referring to healers who are still leveling their class or to those entering a raid/ dungeon/ primal for the first time. I am aware of the fact there are people out there way less confident with what they're doing than I am. This is totally fine, but at some point in leveling a healer you have to realise your toolkit has more skills than for the raw healing and even if you are not confident, it's just stupid to stay there and say "I will never use them, because of reasons! And I don't want to! Because I am healer and it's not my duty to make damage! Shitty DPS should make more damage!" (Again, please look above what I said about DPS not using their complete toolkit. So how can those healers expect others to improve, if they're refusing to do the same?!)

[dragonseth07]

Im not actually talking about the exeptionally skilled players I am talking about average players like myself that end up in average player groups. Which because of this usually need 2 healers also, the players that dont have 270 gear yet.

Everyone wants to believe they are average or slightly better than average.

All of my queue's in DF in this game have given me a baseline for "average" players: they have no issues using CS on every fight, and most are comfortable AoE'ing down mass pulls.

The healers who can't manage Cleric Stance are simply not the average players we are talking about. They are below average in skill level.

[Taika]

Some anti-healer-DPS people are arguing that it's unfair that healers "have to fill two roles" while the DDs, for example, only fill one. These people are not considering how demanding it is to play a DD role well and effectively. Good DDs maximise their DPS by learning the fights well, considering all of their movement during the fight and making the most of their abilities by adjusting their optimal rotation for each situation to maximise their DPS output and minimise all DPS loss.

Doing DPS is effectively the same thing for healers: they learn the fight and what is the healing requirement for each part of it, and maximise their effectiveness by covering the healing requirement and then using the rest of the time to support their party by doing DPS.

In Savage context, a healer who doesn't DPS is the same than a DD who doesn't bother to use the correct rotation or adjust it depending on the fight or work on minimising their movement to cut DPS loss. In other content, where the healing requirements are even lower, a healer who doesn't DPS is more like a melee DD who stands in one position spamming 1-2-3. In both scenarios they are doing their job, at least in theory, but they're not doing it effectively, and they're not filling the general minimum expectations for their role.

[Feyona]

I think that if all dps played their roles well and effectively, then I could probaby do the same, getting more space to dps. The difference is that if dps are not playing all of their toolkit for dps then the party isnt going to wipe immediatey as it does if Im in cleric and cannot heal a tank in time. Then agian if all dps played well I could probably solo heal instead of needing to dps. I really dont know what all your groups are like but the groups Ive been in are not as ideal as what you are making them out to be. I dont mind if Im with a wmg that wants to cs as long as im not kicked for healing when necessary just because Im a scholar.

[Feyona]

I have 35 spells, thereabouts, as a pro scholar I am meant to use all of them. Ok right? This is my toolkit. Ive even cross classed blizzrd 2. How many other classes have to use 35 skills just because they are in their toolkit? The crtizisms I got from analysis of my parse were oh u didnt use this spell or that spell often enough etc Where do you guys get the time to use 35 spells all the time between cs and non cs? Unless the other healer solo heals Im just overwhelmed by everything Im supposed to do. I practiced with a friend in a9n he solo healed while I did it but I still had to heal now and then ( not everyone can solo heal it btw)

[Taika]

I have 35 spells, thereabouts, as a pro scholar I am meant to use all of them. Ok right? This is my toolkit. Ive even cross classed blizzrd 2. How many other classes have to use 35 skills just because they are in their toolkit?

It's not that different for other jobs, actually. On my last A10S kill, I used 30 different abilities while our DRG used 26 abilities and our WAR 28 abilities. Of course SCH and SMN use more abilities because they are also controlling their pets, but those pet abilities can also be used while casting something else. Also the number of spells you have doesn't really affect how busy you are, since you're still limited by the GCD and the OCDs you can fit between those. Jobs with pets and many OCD abilities just work a bit faster (= are a bit busier) than others.

It really is a useful tool to check the amount of abilities you are using in a certain fight compared to other Scholars and also the amount of casts you can fit in the fight (and your activity %) combined with your overheal %. For example, in A9S you're not using Eye for an Eye or Deployment Tactics which are extremely useful abilities in preventing your tank and other party members from taking damage. Learning to use these abilities to your benefit will offer you much more opportunities to do DPS. In most cases your opportunities for DPS follow from your own actions, not from the skill of your group members.