Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[Greedalox]

Cleric Stance purely exists as a tool to punish players for not knowing a fight, so I wouldn't care if it got replaced with something fun.

I know this is a few pages back but didn't see anybody raise a point to it.

I'd argue Cleric Stance purely exists as a tool to reward players for knowing a fight.

[FabricioRF]

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My whole point exactly. Thanks for clarifying my post.

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You speak like Cleric Stance makes people dumb LOL

[AmeliaVerves]

It really is all or nothing. Cleric stance doesn't teach a healer how to play, they get pretty much no feedback on whether it's safe to use or not [...]

Ehm... what?!
Please enlighten me if I am wrong, but does that mean the knowledge when to DPS and when not was brought to me one night by... I don't know... Toothfairy? o.O Because I am quite sure I learned it by wiping and then realising "Oopsie daisy... I should have not made damage there, but should have healed more. ^^' "

A little question: My best friend is mostly able to solo heal A9s and A10s with her WHM, so me as off heal is meant to... stand around? Watching Netflix, waiting for the 2 moments in the fight where she needs a little assistance and being carried just because CS is bad and made by the devil and you shall not uuuuuuseeeeeee!!! (A little exaggeration here...)

Have you ever thought about CS could be more save when the entering CD was removed instead of removing a skill every healer needs to do the MSQ in an appropriate time instead of it taking 10 minutes to kill 2 enemies?
Sorry, but me as a healer could just turn it around and say: "Damage stances should be removed, because tanks are meant to mitigate damage! They keep me from using my whole toolkit! So I want it to be removed!"
(Btw, were you aware of the fact that overhealing pushes a healers hate more than anything else? So going in CS and dps actually does assist you in damage stance. :P)
I hope you see the point, but I fear you do not, because you seem very close-minded and as if you don't want to think about different opinions or accept others see things differently.

I don't really mind if CS would be deactivated in general dungeons, but you should be aware of the fact that a loooot of healers will start joining in as tanks or dps ever since healing will become frustratingly boring. (Leading to extra bonus for healers in roulette dungeons, because they're wanted class then? xD) Me personally, I would still join as SCH, go on auto follow and let Eos take care of you, ever since I wouldn't have anything to do there.
But if you want to touch CS in raids? No way, never want this to happen!!! I love my SCH and I love being able to contribute a fair amount of dps to burst the boss even faster.

[Lambdafish]

But if you want to touch CS in raids? No way, never want this to happen!!! I love my SCH and I love being able to contribute a fair amount of dps to burst the boss even faster.

People will counter with "Healer DPS isn't counted when designing boss fights", and I want to respond to that before they even get the chance. The reason that DPS isn't counted when designing boss fights is that they are designed to account for MINIMUM DAMAGE OUTPUT. That is not to say that healer DPS isn't a normal part healing, it is that the content is designed so that players don't have to min/max to clear. What healer DPS does is it allows damage to be spread further across teammates meaning that if a DPS fumbles (read: "fumbles", not "is terrible", we all have those moments) then the extra damage from a healer helps the party get one step closer to clearing. And as you said, there is plenty of time for it.

Then there is healer accuracy. The reason for this is in response to gordias, where the community made Healer DPS a requirement in order to even be able to clear the content, and the devs responded by making an extreme statement about it not being a requirement in order to beat the content (to not develop a generation of terrible healers who don't heal). I am firmly of the belief that this was a temporary measure to allow the community to recover from Gordias, and in SB they are evaluating accuracy in general. What I'm trying to get at is that healer DPS is not a requirement IF you are planning on playing on the lower end of the damage output (remember that the fights are tuned to minimum expected damage output), but what that does is it puts unnecessary pressure on gearing the DPS in order to clear the content for the sake of your own laziness.

Also, I gave up ever responding to Thunda_cat, it's like talking to a brick wall.

[AmeliaVerves]

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I am totally with you! Let me make one thing clear: I never had to DPS in order to kill A9s or A10s, because our DDs were totally fine taking care of this on their own in our first kill. Me and my best friend were still a little insecure and because of safety both of ous stayed out of CS the whole fight. Not a single Dot were made by us healers and we cleared absolutely fine. But when we got better, both of us decided to give it a try with (almost) solo healing it, except for some critical moments when I have to leave CS and help, but that barely happend after gaining more experience with each fight.

Btw, while I am going to cap my Acc to 600 (including buff-food) soon with my relic, my friend is not going to meld one single Acc materia, therefore she doesn't even need to bother entering CS in A12s, because eventually she wont be able to place a hit anyway. xD But! And there we go with personal playstyle and preferances: She loves healing more than anything and is really pationate and skilled in raw healing, but also likes having a few seconds to plan the next steps during the fights.
I am the complete oposite. I don't plan, but I react. Of course I know when to place an Adlo and when to spread it or use Eos, but I love being in a hurry. Jumping in and out of CS, while running around following mechanics and telling Eos what to do. The more stressful the situation the more focused I am and the better my gameplay gets.

And I do know for 100% there are many others out there just like me. Taking CS away from us would destroy the positive experience of a complete role for many people and might even lead them to leaving the game and finding another one where healers are able to dps properly, instead of throwing a 900 crit Broil where it could be a 4000 crit Broil...

[Cynfael]

People will counter with "Healer DPS isn't counted when designing boss fights", and I want to respond to that before they even get the chance. The reason that DPS isn't counted when designing boss fights is that they are designed to account for MINIMUM DAMAGE OUTPUT. That is not to say that healer DPS isn't a normal part healing, it is that the content is designed so that players don't have to min/max to clear...

Unfortunately people have and will continue to set up the dev article about minimum DPS calculations for end-game raids as a strawman to attack Cleric Stance and healer DPS expectations in general. They read only what they want to read and completely ignore or skew the context to support their position, which is usually "I hate to DPS as healer and wish I had excuses not to do it" or "I am a special snowflake who chooses not to DPS as healer and am looking to explain why my playstyle is not actually selfish or lazy." We've been through this dance at least once or twice already in this same thread.

[Ghishlain]

I personally don't care too much if a healer uses Cleric Stance or not when they're with me in a dungeon, but I do feel it's important to encourage the usage of Cleric Stance in more general and broad discussions when talking about "How do I improve as a healer". Proper Cleric Stance usage is important to optimizing as a healer and of course is something one must get accustomed to as they discover the proper lull moments in bosses / dungeons / etc that enable usage of this ability.

I dislike it when people broadly generalize / brand those who encourage Cleric Stance usage as elitist, "filthy raiders", etc. because it's literally showing your own negative bias and willful ignorance of on an ability that should be used as often as possible to help your party out. Yes, you're going to run into that bad apple that doesn't know their butt from a whole in the ground but those do NOT make up the vast majority of healers who know when and how to use Cleric Stance or learning to use the ability. If you're going to broadly stigmatize a healer that uses Cleric Stance as "Terrible", your discussion isn't welcomed.

[MaikoRaines]

That's odd, I would say CS is even more mandatory at that point, personally, since that's one of the situations where I feel obligated to turn it on despite hating the play style.

That way of thinking will always put the party at risk of a guaranteed wipe.

This also depends on the fight. If you have people who are new and unfamiliar to the fight who isn't up to snuff, longevity VS DPS any day of the week in the event of newbies. They need to learn the fight and their follies, and you need to ensure they stay up long enough to figure out they need to get better. Much like how I run Void Ark and can easily solo heal it while throwing down ample DPS. I've covered it more than enough where I know that Medica 2, Regen and Asylum are the top three spells I ever really cast while throwing down the hurt. Especially in that third fight where it's a ton of AOE damage.

I run with the same core group of people on a regular basis. When I run with a random pick up group, notice they're owning it, and see me jumping into the fray, I nail everyone's commendations for being versatile. I don't HAVE to DPS, but for those next few minutes, I'm part of a team. I do my part.

You might hate the playstyle and that's fine. You can figure it out for yourself. But when it risks wiping the fight because you don't feel it's dying fast enough... you might want to reconsider your role a bit more carefully.

To add to this, if you actually feel strongly that CS is only meant for one purpose such as picking up weaker DPS, then I think you may need to re-evaluate your skillset as a healing class.

Anyways, I'm done trying to convince you. You're set on your ways. This works for me 100% of the time. Squeenix will never change the mechanics of healers as they are working as intended - and you're arguing a losing battle here.

Besides, my commendations earned speak more than any words have.

Good luck.

[Feyona]

Unfortunately people have and will continue to set up the dev article about minimum DPS calculations for end-game raids as a strawman to attack Cleric Stance and healer DPS expectations in general. They read only what they want to read and completely ignore or skew the context to support their position, which is usually "I hate to DPS as healer and wish I had excuses not to do it" or "I am a special snowflake who chooses not to DPS as healer and am looking to explain why my playstyle is not actually selfish or lazy." We've been through this dance at least once or twice already in this same thread.

Sometimes you guys talk like healing is unnecessary on its own. It is not being selfish or lazy when you find playing two roles simultaniously too difficult.The fact that it is more and more expected when its not understood that only the more skilled that can do it well in current content that is the problem

[Feyona]

I do hope that no one else has to exprience what I did , because of other peple being ignorant to the fact that some content requires alot of healing, and in some cases thats what you need to do full time to keep the group alive. I would ask for cleric to be disabled in current content, but not in older instances or story alex. Also, dont think its actually fair to say that healers that dont want to play double roles are not skilled in their class or role. Maybe dps need to get 'more skilled' as well.