Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I see it the other way, actually. I'm not sure the current dps obsessed healer corps would want that level of responsibility because it would involve less time for them to contribute to the deeps, but I can think of quite a few people that would jump ship immediately because that's the kind of action they enjoy. I imagine that the people that can't handle stance dancing, whether it's because they don't enjoy it or find it mind numbingly boring, would be able to handle the pressure just fine. It would also in turn cause tanks to play more defensively as well, while making mitigation and recovery utilities like Rend Mind and Mantra more important as well.

[imadbros]

With the current way the game is designed there is no reason for Cleric Stance to be disabled in dungeons. If that were to be the case, we'd have a large amount of time where we, as healers, don't contribute to the fight. In Heavensward, for example, they'd have to dramatically lower the healing numbers or up the damage taken by players, neither of which are ideal solutions if you wanted healers to stick to healing. Many healers, myself included, don't raid but when I do my roulettes, if I have some downtime during fights I'm going to DoT and Malefic/Gravity when its safe to do so. Othewise, I'm spending 80% of the time doing nothing. This is how the current system is designed.

If the idea of making Cleric Stance outside of group content impossible to be used is implemented, you'd have to change the way battles are done in group content. There's simply not enough damage being applied for this to be the case at this current time.

[Cynfael]

I see it the other way, actually. I'm not sure the current dps obsessed healer corps would want that level of responsibility because it would involve less time for them to contribute to the deeps, but I can think of quite a few people that would jump ship immediately because that's the kind of action they enjoy. I imagine that the people that can't handle stance dancing, whether it's because they don't enjoy it or find it mind numbingly boring, would be able to handle the pressure just fine. It would also in turn cause tanks to play more defensively as well, while making mitigation and recovery utilities like Rend Mind and Mantra more important as well.

What you say is possible. I do imagine that there are players out there who refuse to DPS on principle (which is silly and selfish, but beside the point) who might be all for whack-a-mole healing gameplay.

I won't lie and say that it isn't fun sometimes, because it can create some very exciting encounters. On the other hand it can become tiresome, as I said, when you end up being the babysitter-in-chief because almost all of the responsibility for mitigating and healing party-wide damage falls to you (unlike now, where reasonable players other than the tank avoid almost all of the damage in any given encounter except for very specific mechanics that can be seen coming a mile away).

Unfortunately I am pessimistic about this, so I rather imagine that the increased expectation of good reflexes and quick thinking would be a turn-off to many. Players who are good at memorization and planning ahead (i.e. what this game has rewarded them for) but who have poor twitch ability wouldn't be pleased with this turn of events, and players who had difficulty with stance dancing from a technical standpoint would be utterly left in the dust.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

And then you have the people that dps as healers out of obligation, not because they actually enjoy the play style. As a healer, while I do it out of said obligation I hate dpsing as one, it causes me to zone out and peruse tvtropes so I don't fall asleep out of boredom, because it's not really making my job as a healer any easier, I'm just putting in numbers that by rights the tanks and dps should be fully capable of putting up without my assistance. As a healer, what I signed up for was twitch healing reflexes, mana management, and planning ahead. Instead what I got was a glorified dps with the simplest and most bare bones rotation.

As a tank? I feel the benefits of dps stance tanking and balancing defense with offense. As a healer? I resent my party because they need my crutch dps since they can't manage appropriate numbers on their own.

[Cynfael]

As a tank? I feel the benefits of dps stance tanking and balancing defense with offense. As a healer? I resent my party because they need my crutch dps since they can't manage appropriate numbers on their own.

I'm curious as to why you feel differently about stance-dancing on healer vs. stance-dancing on tank when the philosophy and the benefit to the party are extremely similar.

Also, why the assumption that a healer pulling their full weight is serving as a crutch to their party? More DPS almost always means more time saved by all. Personally I don't buy into the notion that healer is the only role to get a 100% exemption from doing DPS as they are able.

[VanilleFang]

Personally I don't buy into the notion that healer is the only role to get a 100% exemption from doing DPS as they are able.

Yeah, why does a tank have to maximize their DPS but a healer doesn't? A tank could get away with just spamming their enmity combo/aoe and they'd hold hate. Why do they have to bother doing damage if the healer doesn't?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I'm curious as to why you feel differently about stance-dancing on healer vs. stance-dancing on tank when the philosophy and the benefit to the party are extremely similar.

As a tank, any and all dps feeds back into enmity regardless, and most importantly, aggressive tanking isn't a play style that's forced on me by the community. Besides, it feels pretty badass to be in SwO/no grit and have tank busters shave off peanuts! As a healer though? I feel more like I'm being punished by the community when I don't struggle to keep people alive because then I have to adapt a play style that's completely boring for me.

And doesn't all dps as a healer feed back into required healing?.

Saving MP is only relevant if you would've otherwise run out, and there's no fight so healer intense that you'll be running MP starved if you have any degree of mana management.

Not to mention using Holy to prevent enemies from attacking and Shadowflare to slow them down... Doing DPS as a healer is actually a really effective way to prevent your party from being hurt.

Holy's AoE stun is irrelevant outside of faceroll content, where monsters already tickle tanks rather than be an actual threat, and Shadow flare 's 5% slow mitigates less damage than RoH. I fell off my seat laughing at people trying to sell those as relevant mitigation, when Everything's stun/slow immune in relevant content, and Shadow flare is useless as mitigation because nothing survives long enough to actually benefit from the measly 5% slow.

The only time healer dps can mitigate damage is in the case of ultimates, as in primal fights.

[VanilleFang]

As a tank, any and all dps feeds back into enmity regardless.

And doesn't all dps as a healer feed back into required healing?
The way I see it is if the thing is dead it can't hurt anyone, so me dealing 3000 damage could save me a cure or two, or save someone from dying.

[Taika]

And doesn't all dps as a healer feed back into required healing?
The way I see it is if the thing is dead it can't hurt anyone, so me dealing 3000 damage could save me a cure or two, or save someone from dying.

Not to mention using Holy to prevent enemies from attacking and Shadowflare to slow them down... Doing DPS as a healer is actually a really effective way to prevent your party from being hurt.

Holy's AoE stun is irrelevant outside of faceroll content, where monsters already tickle tanks rather than be an actual threat, and Shadow flare 's 5% slow mitigates less damage than RoH. I fell off my seat laughing at people trying to sell those as relevant mitigation, when Everything's stun/slow immune in relevant content, and Shadow flare is useless as mitigation because nothing survives long enough to actually benefit from the measly 5% slow.

Holy's AoE Stun is incredibly relevant in all dungeons and raids it can be used, since it can stun everything for 10 seconds during which no one needs any healing. That said, as VanilleFang posted earlier, healer DPS prevents group from being damaged simply by making stuff die faster - and it can also increase DPS of other party members.

[Cynfael]

As a tank, any and all dps feeds back into enmity regardless, and most importantly, aggressive tanking isn't a play style that's forced on me by the community. Besides, it feels pretty badass to be in SwO/no grit and have tank busters shave off peanuts! As a healer though? I feel more like I'm being punished by the community when I don't struggle to keep people alive because then I have to adapt a play style that's completely boring for me.

What I'm reading from this is "I use my full tank kit because I personally enjoy it, and I grudgingly use my full healer kit only because I'm concerned that I will be perceived as lazy if I stand around doing nothing." It's not as if you need to maximize your DPS opportunities as tank to perform the essential function of the role, but it does make you a better tank and a better player. Likewise, being an active healer who uses their full kit makes you better in the role and a better player. You not liking how the healer role works in this game is a different issue.

Saving MP is only relevant if you would've otherwise run out, and there's no fight so healer intense that you'll be running MP starved if you have any degree of mana management.

I generally agree with you here. Personally I don't see MP as the issue, though technically I suppose it is another metric we can measure. From my perspective time is the more relevant resource in the majority of situations since most of us spend quite a bit of play time repeating familiar scenarios, and no one wants to spend more time in repetition than what's needed to accomplish the goal. This is why I appreciate good tanks for stance dancing and good healers for doing the same rather than deciding to Netflix-and-Chill while the party manages not to stand in bad circles.

Holy's AoE stun is irrelevant outside of faceroll content, where monsters already tickle tanks rather than be an actual threat, and Shadow flare 's 5% slow mitigates less damage than RoH. I fell off my seat laughing at people trying to sell those as relevant mitigation, when Everything's stun/slow immune in relevant content, and Shadow flare is useless as mitigation because nothing survives long enough to actually benefit from the measly 5% slow.

Holy's AoE stun is still relevant mitigation for massive pulls for close-to-ilvl dungeon content, which most players spend a lot of time doing for tomes etc. Shadow Flare, on the other hand, is utter crap as mitigation, I agree. However, I don't position healer DPS as a mitigation argument; for me it's simply common sense that, if you have nothing else to do, you attack the mobs.