Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[Tyroie]

Before I bought the game, I took a close look at what the game is like at level 60. Asked friends, watched a lot of videos. I bought the game in part because I saw I could DPS as a healer. Were I to log in and find that taken away, I would immediately unsubscribe and stop playing.

I can completely accept any group that refuses to play with a healer who doesn't want to DPS. Or otherwise doesn't meet any standard that applies equally to all their members. Some of this game's stuff is really tough.

That said - anyone who tells a healer who doesn't DPS that "this game isn't for them" is simply being elitist. Everyone has their own comfortable skill / effort level, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a video game. I would personally rather play with the healer that doesn't DPS, than someone who makes someone else feel bad for not meeting their standards.

[Cynfael]

I come back to the game after more than a year and find the same arguments on the front page of the subforum.

It still baffles me that anyone is advocating for their own nerfs. If you don't want to use Cleric Stance, then don't; you won't be playing optimally in all situations, but you will be able to fill the primary and most necessary function of your role. However, I would prefer that players who have some issue with Cleric Stance and feel unduly burdened by having the capability to provide supporting DPS not keep trying to take it away from those who enjoy the flexibility and utility it provides.

Overgearing is not necessary for healers to provide DPS during healing downtime; it just helps promote increased healing downtime and ease of stance-dancing. I've done a lot of content since 3.1 at or near minimum ilvl and have not had difficulty providing at least some additional DPS even when the tank and other party members weren't hugely overgeared. If your allies eat a lot of unnecessary damage, of course you will spend more time healing, but from reading some threads around here it seems that many players still seem to think that healer DPS is something you do instead of your usual job rather than just another tool in your kit.

And no, you cannot inflict damage effectively at all without Cleric Stance except in beginner dungeons. The difference is great enough by lvl 50-60 that disabling Cleric Stance in instanced dungeons would be tantamount to removing all DPS skills from healers' bars.

[FunkyBunch]

Before I bought the game, I took a close look at what the game is like at level 60. Asked friends, watched a lot of videos. I bought the game in part because I saw I could DPS as a healer. Were I to log in and find that taken away, I would immediately unsubscribe and stop playing.

I can completely accept any group that refuses to play with a healer who doesn't want to DPS. Or otherwise doesn't meet any standard that applies equally to all their members. Some of this game's stuff is really tough.

That said - anyone who tells a healer who doesn't DPS that "this game isn't for them" is simply being elitist. Everyone has their own comfortable skill / effort level, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a video game. I would personally rather play with the healer that doesn't DPS, than someone who makes someone else feel bad for not meeting their standards.

It's not being "elitist" to expect people to not stand around doing nothing when doing group content. It's selfish to expect others to be okay with you purposely playing bad. See Ice Mage.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Claiming healer doing DPS is causing DDs to slack is a bad argument.

I wouldn't say that it's a bad argument, considering how many DD's I've found that use the healer dps excuse to not give it their all. After all, they aren't inherently wrong, healer DPS certainly can be seen as a distraction to some players. After all, if an encounter only requires 6k from the group, and both healers are dpsing full time, then that limits already been long since passed. Admittedly, I myself am guilty of using macros to play for me when I see healers like that. After all, why bother playing at my best when we're already guaranteed to clear the instance?

[Cynfael]

I wouldn't say that it's a bad argument, considering how many DD's I've found that use the healer dps excuse to not give it their all. After all, they aren't inherently wrong, healer DPS certainly can be seen as a distraction to some players. After all, if an encounter only requires 6k from the group, and both healers are dpsing full time, then that limits already been long since passed. Admittedly, I myself am guilty of using macros to play for me when I see healers like that. After all, why bother playing at my best when we're already guaranteed to clear the instance?

True to a point, but that cuts both ways since healers and tanks who prefer to do their bare minimum can rationalize that playing with one eye on Facebook is okay since the DPS are going all out and meeting the total party DPS requirement without any additional button presses required of the other two roles.

[Tyroie]

It's not being "elitist" to expect people to not stand around doing nothing when doing group content. It's selfish to expect others to be okay with you purposely playing bad. See Ice Mage.

We're mostly in agreement. It's fine to have standards. You are free to decline playing with anybody.

But that doesn't mean they aren't free to play the way they like. You don't know their conditions or reasoning - nor do you care. To repeat myself, if you are willing to get hostile (such as using phrases like "this game isn't for you,") then the only person causing misery is you.

It's great that you give it your all for the good of everyone you're playing with, and thank you for doing it, but it is not mandatory for anybody to do. And I know that's a bit weird, but it's the truth.

[Kabzy]

-Snip-

I agree. When it comes to raid scenarios you can exercise your standards on people as much as you want. However for all other content in the game, just let people play how they want to. I find it ridiculous when people legit complain about and flame people in dungeons for not being that great.

Do your best, offer advice in a friendly manner if they want it, and move on. Everybody plays this game for their own reasons and nobody is obliged to mould themselves to your standards.

Edit:

And to actually get back to the point, HELL NO to disabling Cleric Stance. Even if they gave us more healing to actually do, it would still be a major disappointment for Scholar mains who spend arguably the majority of time in Cleric. If you don't like it, don't use it. There's no need to penalize everybody because you refuse to explore the entire toolkit of your job.

[Ghishlain]

-snip-

I just wanted to say welcome back =p I have nothing to contribute more to this thread that hasn't already been said in the myriad of other posts and threads.

[Cynfael]

I just wanted to say welcome back =p I have nothing to contribute more to this thread that hasn't already been said in the myriad of other posts and threads.

Thank you! Nice to see you're still around

And yeah, I couldn't help myself even though I know we've been debating this topic up and down the forums for years; it never fails to get my goat.

[Alisa180]

Don't know if you are serious or not... so you want to remove CS from all healers just because you can't do it!

Not remove Cleric Stance entirely. I am not saying that at all. I am in favor of simply disable it in party instances ala PvP. Cleric Stance itself would presumably still exist, and still fulfill its dev-intended function of allowing healers to do solo content like the MSQ. That was the original point of CS, and the devs have said the use of it in dungeons and raids was an unintended, out-of-the-box tactic.

And call yourself a wonderful healer while you can't even stance dance properly? One of the requirement for stance dancing is knowing the fight well and know when dmg gonna happen. I doubt any healers who cannot stance dance have enough experience of any fight and can heal "well" (as in efficient) when they don't know when they need/don't need to heal. But of course without the need to DPS healers can just spamming medica 2 and call that a wonderful job, when everyone at full HP and no one die. Sorry for sarcasm :P

I am just fine at healing itself, and was actually mastering the skill of timing heals to occur just as damage did when I gave up on the role altogether. I used to play Holy Priest in WoW, and when it comes to healing itself, many of the skills I picked up there are applicable to the very similar healing style of WHM.

Even if they remove CS they will have to give healer good dps in some way (eg. scale it with mind instead), and in the end you will be demanded to dps even harder than now (cause there is no need to stance dancing anymore).

As I said above, I am not saying to remove CS altogether Just disable it in party instances. Healers would still be able to use it outside them.