Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

The real question is when you consider something last ditch.
Clemency when you have 8000 HP left? Waste.

Bloodbath should never even be used as a last ditch effort, you use it as a sustain self heal when your damage CDs are up.

I let tanks drop to 4000 hp and less voluntarily while DPSing as an AST to get the most of my Essential Dignity.
A healer doesnt need to keep you 100% topped all the time, thats not his job. He has to keep your HP to a point where it's always more than zero.

Try 1k or less HP. More often then not I wind up with my casts going off at my last 1%-.5% of my HP remaining and bloodbath is always kept on CD so I can get as much self healing as possible out of it. I have absolutely no faith in dps healers, as all the ones I've come across were more interested in dpsing than keeping people in a 'not dead' state.

[Jaeifer]

Try 1k or less HP. More often then not I wind up with my casts going off at my last 1%-.5% of my HP remaining and bloodbath is always kept on CD so I can get as much self healing as possible out of it. I have absolutely no faith in dps healers, as all the ones I've come across were more interested in dpsing than keeping people in a 'not dead' state.

If they let you drop that low and there's no heal from the healers at the moment you self-healed yourself then they're just bad, point given.
But then it becomes a matter of not generalizing that to every DPSing healer.

[Cleftobismal]

Snip

You're over generalizing a bit. I know when i dps I'll always weave in heals if the tank refuses to use any defensive CD for whatever reason after a big pull. At the same time I would use celestial opposition to extend light speed for Gravity spams. With this alone im able to spam 2 gravity's before the stun wears off on all the mobs and then some until the tanks hp is rapidly going down the halfway mark. (Depending on the tanks gear and the rate of their hp decreasing I may continue to clear the mobs until their hp is 35%.)

If your hp was really 1k or less in 60 content pulls. You'd be dead before the healer would react, unless your taking HP loss at an extremely low rate by some miracle. (HG + regens)

To give you some insight as to why we healers like to add in some DPS when we can. It's the same exact reason why you tanks bother to use GCD, despite the healers capabilities to keep you alive without them. You lower the HPS requirement on our part, which in turn gives us time to DPS.

Now if you truly wan't a healer to not have the time to DPS. Don't use your GCD then. You may understand this point after the party asks you why you aren't using your GCD.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

If your hp was really 1k or less in 60 content pulls. You'd be dead before the healer would react, unless your taking HP loss at an extremely low rate by some miracle. (HG + regens).

Thank you for supporting my point that CS promotes sloppy play. Incidentally, that's also not completely correct either, as it's very possible to time Clemency to land on myself right as I'm about to die, something I've had to do numerous times because healers would refuse to pop out of cs to heal me. I've healed and tanked pretty much all content that I enjoy doing, and I do realize why healers like dpsing, as it's something I grudgingly do despite how boring the healers dps 'rotation' is. Incidentally, it's hardly generalizing when literally every dps focused healer I've never had would've resulted in a wipe if I was anything other than a pld.

[VanilleFang]

CS promotes sloppy play.

How? It's not CS that is sloppy, it's the player. If the player practiced enough they wouldn't be sloppy.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

How? It's not CS that is sloppy, it's the player. If the player practiced enough they wouldn't be sloppy.

CS seems to help promote the concept that healers can ignore the rest of the party for the sake of their own numbers. I can count the number of competent uses of it(not including the people in my own fc) on one hand, and pretty ugh every use of it I've seen has led to panic attacks as I desperately try to keep myself alive with my own self heals while the healer ignores their job as healer and let's me die. And to answer your earlier question, I'd prefer a healer that just heals, as that not only allows me to comfortably sit in dps stance, but also pretty much guarantees a smooth, stress free run.

I'm quite sure I'm not the only one that'll happily votekick a healer for focusing so much on dps that they let an easily prevented wipe happen, either.

[VanilleFang]

snipperoo.

I would kick a healer who ignores their primary role as well.

If you don't think it's possible for a tank to stay in their DPS Stance just because the healer decided to use CS then... I don't know who you've been playing with.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I would kick a healer who ignores their primary role as well.

If you don't think it's possible for a tank to stay in their DPS Stance just because the healer decided to use CS then... I don't know who you've been playing with.

I'm more than happy to sit in dps stance regardless, though some of the healers I've ran into certainly seem to support that train of thought. I actually had a scholar in full raid gear cuss me out in A9N last week because I was main tanking in SwO. Naturally, I pointed out their apparent competency as a healer thanks to their gear, whilst rotating cd's, and they responded by dissipating their fairy and leaving it unsummoned for the rest of the fight, while the AST worked alone to keep everyone up. It was remarkably hilarious, especially when I questioned why they wanted ShO.

I am not going to risk going into CS and compromising healing with a group of people who can't DPS out of a wet paper bag.

That's odd, I would say CS is even more mandatory at that point, personally, since that's one of the situations where I feel obligated to turn it on despite hating the play style.

I have to agree with some of what your saying because my healing has been put under pressure by a healing partner that stayed in cleric to sow how skilled she was at dps/ healing, becuase it is more 'valued' I was kicked for healing.

Youch... that sucks. I would've berated the other healer for not helping out if I'd seen that you were struggling. :c Sucks.

You and Thunda_Cat seem to have to same problem. It's like all or nothing with you guys.

It really is all or nothing. Cleric stance doesn't teach a healer how to play, they get pretty much no feedback on whether it's safe to use or not, whereas tanks that hop into dps stance at the wrong time are left sitting ducks, at the expense of precious resources, ((PLD/DRK)) or 10 seconds of extra vulnerability that an uninitiated tank won't have the foresight to properly mitigate. Healers get 5 secs of weaker heals, but those 5 seconds are so easily covered by other sources that it feels like a slap on the wrist more than anything.

[Feyona]

CS seems to help promote the concept that healers can ignore the rest of the party for the sake of their own numbers. I can count the number of competent uses of it(not including the people in my own fc) on one hand, and pretty ugh every use of it I've seen has led to panic attacks as I desperately try to keep myself alive with my own self heals while the healer ignores their job

I'm quite sure I'm not the only one that'll happily votekick a healer for focusing so much on dps that they let an easily prevented wipe happen, either.

I have to agree with some of what your saying because my healing has been put under pressure by a healing partner that stayed in cleric to sow how skilled she was at dps/ healing, becuase it is more 'valued' I was kicked for healing.

[Cleftobismal]

Thank you for supporting my point that CS promotes sloppy play.

If that's your argument then I could of been saying your stances promote sloppy play. But I can't because I know everybody is different. Something I don't think you've yet to understand. Or rather, you don't want to.