I don't really understand. why, exactly, does Ishgard initially shun Machinists?

[JMadFour]

I mean, they use Cannons and Bombs and other mechanical devices(like the snares on Steps of Faith), ostensibly made at the Skysteel Manufactory(likely at great cost, considering the size of some of these contraptions)to fight the Dragons.

So why would they logically shun the idea of mobile Soldiers carrying handheld Cannons, with mass producable ammo, capable of hitting AN AIRBORNE Dragon at likely a far greater range than an Archer and possibly knocking it out of the sky for the Knights and Dragoons to finish off?

Wouldn't one think that such a thing would be an advantage in the War against the Dragons?

[ZhaneX]

It's a matter of Ishgard's caste system. The matter of Highborn vs Lowborn.

Firearms can be easily produced and more people easily trained in their use, especially when compared to Ishgard's elite Knights and Dragoons. Machinistry is initially shunned for fear of arming the lower class, which could eventually lead to conflict against their "Betters". This combined with centuries of the "You're not a real warrior unless you X" mentality.

[Heliantheae]

Dzemeal's are jerks.

[Belhi]

Its a mix of traditionalism which is deeply ingrained in Ishgard and concerns the nobles have about arming and training the lower class.

Ishgard has several times in its past shunned practicality for tradition. The AF2 weapon and armour according to the lore book were produced by a very talented crafter for use by the dragoons and while approved of by the dragoons themselves the designs were rejected by the Holy See for deviating from the traditional design even though they were improvements. In the LTW quest line you discover that the method for treating leather armour used in Gridania was originally conceived by a Ishgardian however he never managed to convince the powers that be in Ishgard try implementing use of leather armour for certain roles even though the lighter and warmer armour would be more practical.

Dzemeal's are jerks.

That's not universally true. Their former count is pretty cool.

[Morningstar1337]

Having recently leveled MCH to 50 i can confirm that this is classism at work as others have mentioned. As well as traditionalism. But mostly paranoia that arming the populace would enable them to revolt and kill them (and if they had loved ones that perished relating tot he war post 3.0, chances are they want revenge too)

[Cilia]

Aside from the traditionalist and caste angles, the nobility fears that their superiority will disappear if everyday commoners are given the power to defend themselves. Even more, they may be justifiably paranoid that giving commoners such power will lead to revolt and the loss of their high status.

Really, without the Horde to unite everyone via a common enemy it could have easily come to that.

[LineageRazor]

Aside from the traditionalist and caste angles, the nobility fears that their superiority will disappear if everyday commoners are given the power to defend themselves. Even more, they may be justifiably paranoid that giving commoners such power will lead to revolt and the loss of their high status.

Really, without the Horde to unite everyone via a common enemy it could have easily come to that.

This. ^

It's actually explicitly mentioned in the MCH storyline that there are certain individuals in high places that are uneasy with the thought that a commoner can be handed a rifle with little or no training and be just as lethal as a knight armed with a sword and years of training. Particularly since many among the nobility KNOW that they haven't given the common folk much reason to love them.

Guns and such may be useful against the dragons, but once the threat of the dragons is gone, those guns will still be around. And once the commoners no longer need the nobles to protect them from the dragons, the nobles are going to need to lean hard on the commoners to keep them in line. Guns would give the common folk a way to meet the nobles on equal - or even superior - terms, and the nobles don't like the sound of that one bit. There's a reason why the greatest advocate for the rights of commoners, Hilda the Mongrel, is a gun user...

To be frank, Stephanivien always struck me as a bit the starry-eyed optimist for failing to consider these things. While his work IS important, the fact that he's so confused and flabbergasted by the continued opposition the nobility shows him indicates to me that he really hasn't considered the possibility that guns could be used against targets OTHER than dragons...

[FJerome]

To be frank, Stephanivien always struck me as a bit the starry-eyed optimist for failing to consider these things. While his work IS important, the fact that he's so confused and flabbergasted by the continued opposition the nobility shows him indicates to me that he really hasn't considered the possibility that guns could be used against targets OTHER than dragons...

Honestly, I think he may subconsciously want the class system to collapse. He doesn't want to become Count de Haillenarte, all that would do is drag him away from his workshops.

[Morningstar1337]

To be frank, Stephanivien always struck me as a bit the starry-eyed optimist for failing to consider these things. While his work IS important, the fact that he's so confused and flabbergasted by the continued opposition the nobility shows him indicates to me that he really hasn't considered the possibility that guns could be used against targets OTHER than dragons...

There is also the matter of indoctrination. The dogma has set in both low and highborn alike and with it the percetion that the Dragonsong war could never end (Not helping that this is Nidhogg's schemes, instead of outright slaughtering Ishgard he'd rather trap them ina cycle of everlasting war). It is very likley that the thought that the Dragonsong war would ever end never occurred to anyone (at least anyone in the lower class) because the length of the war (1000 years) and the indoctrination makes such an idea subconsciously unfeasible.

The Nobles may also want the war to continue because they'd use that as the excuse to oppress the Lowborn, mean thought neither party are aware of it, the Nobility would be just as complicit in the status quo as Nidhogg.

It might also be a reason why they stick to traditional methods rather than more practical ideas like leather armor or the Dragonlancer set, because efficiency means more dragons get killed, more dragons killed means a high chance that the war will end, if the war ends, there will be no distraction to notice the problems in Ishgard caste system and seek reform or revolution. Aided in no small part by the fact that the reason the war started int he first place was because a power mad tyrant killed an innocent dragon and single handely (give or take a dozen knights :P) shattered the peace between them.

Chances are that the aristocracy realized that war is the only thing stand between them and death. grow paranoid of that and became the equvalent of War Hawks out of an attempt of self preservation.

[JMadFour]

going further on this, as I said, we see the Ishgardians using Cannons and metal snares and all kinds of different mechanical contraptions to fight the Dragons.

so, were these created by the Machinists of the Manufactury? if so, that begs the question, when exactly does the MCH storyline take place, in the grand scheme of the Heavensward story?