My personal changes to DRK/PLD

[Lyth]

DRK doesn't need a 100% parry move on a 40 second recast. That's essentially Sheltron in exchange for a DA use.

The problem with DADD at the moment is that it's harder to justify the MP expenditure when there's a chance that you may not even get a dodge proc out of it, especially in single target against a mob with a lower AA rate. As the total number of attacks while the skill is active increases (i.e. the rate), however, you are more likely to achieve the expected dodge/parry rate. This is why the 20% evasion from DADD appears more reliable when tanking large numbers of mobs.

I don't think that reprisal should be usable when you're not actively tanking. The word "reprisal" implies a counterattack. What might be interesting, though, is if DADD made your parries reset your Reprisal recast while it was active, similar to the Low Blows trait. Instead of spending DA to turn DD into some variant of Bulwark, you'd be spending it to go into a flurry of ripostes and kicks.

Speaking of Bulwark, you could just as easily apply the same idea and have block procs reset the Shield Swipe recast while the ability is active.

I like the idea of giving DRK access to silence from thematic, raiding, and PvP balance perspectives, but I wouldn't be a fan of tying it in to DADP. The main reason for using DA on DP is the potency gain with multiple mobs present. The blind is a secondary effect. It's quite costly. If you're going to reserve it for use to silence a single specific mob, it's probably going to be a much bigger dps loss than letting one of the existing jobs who have access to it do it.

Looking at the other suggestions, the BW change strikes me as unnecessary. There are plenty of reasons to drop Grit, so you usually have ready access to it. Shadow Wall's lower DR is likely due to the fact that we have access to DM. If you don't use DA, DM + SW gives you the same DR against magic attacks as Sentinel. TP management isn't an issue on DRK, and it's probably for the best that we don't get skills that require us to actively manage it. MP is our primary resource.

While these suggestions are interesting, I don't think that they address weaknesses in DRK's toolkit. The biggest such weakness is the lack of access to self-healing. It feels like Equilibrium and Clemency were added to balance out DASE, but they were overly cautious with DASE's lifesteal. It costs you 12 GCDs in Grit and 3 DA uses to even approach the healing potency of one oGCD use of Equilibrium, before even taking in other self heals into account (SP/IB/ToB). Bloodbath is available for crossclass on DRK, but has poor synergy with our kit because of the physical damage restriction.

I suspect that the design reason for keeping the heal effect on Grit might be to keep BW's speed buff separate from DASE's self-heal. This seems like something that could be balanced by adjusting the heal potency though, and it would be nice to have some halfway decent lifestealing effects for soloing, if nothing else.

Speaking of self-heals, that suggested Clemency change would simultaneously give PLD access to both the Defiance and Deliverance effects of Equilibrium, on half the recast time, with added the option of giving the benefits to a party member of your choice. I'm all for finding ways around the cast time of Clemency, but that seems a bit too powerful. It might be interesting to have Clemency instead become instant cast off of a block proc. Alternatively, you could make it instant cast with a longer recast, and allow block procs to reset it. That might help give some more value to Bulwark, as above.

[DaulBan]

I think the reality of the DADP thing is that nobody wants to spend a DA on a silence. They're (silence and blind) equally useless in a lot of situations, but at least with trash blind has some use like flash. The silence might have mechanical utility, but nobody is going to use it for a silence in say A6S when a Bard/Ninja/Machinist/Paladin can do the same for way cheaper.

Also DRK doesn't need to be a good OT. It just really needs to be the best MT DPS and it'll see play.

People really want parity between the tanks in terms of MT/OT potential, but really DRK will be fine if it is just a great MT. It's got a solid spot. Paladin is the only tank that really needs some OT consideration imho.

But that's not a conversation for this thread, so I digress.

[Rhaja]

Shield Oath/Sword Oath - No Longer on the GCD, has been put on the oGCD with a 10 second recast timer. MP Requirement still there.

I'm not feeling the oGCD vibe for PLD/DRK because the damage reduction is instantly applied, versus stronger incoming heals. What I feel like needs to be a change is Sword Oath and Shield Oath need to be on the same button, and be an automatic switch, or to a slight extreme make Sword Oath a constant passive, so your only giving up one GCD instead of two when swapping stances.

Sheltron - Can be used to either 100% block the next incoming attack (Vanila) or to make the next spell uninterruptible. Also while active allows the use of Shield Swipe, even if you haven't blocked. (OT Friendly)

Honestly this is such an awesome ability as is that it doesn't need a change. However Bulwark being given the additional effect of blocking magic damage would be fantastic and allow the use of shield swipe while off tanking (magic is usually aoe, mix Bulwark and Sheltron). PLD should also have a built in Surecast IMHO.

Clemency - oGCD with 30s CD. still uses the same MP. Cure Potency of 1200 and TP restoration of 200. If cast on another party member the effect is halved on you also, like Vanila, but this time you'll get half the TP which is 100TP back

Isn't really needed. Clemecy doesn't need to be Equilibrium the Spell. I, personally, would love to see the goring combo be more of a restoration combo where it restores MP first and TP on the last hit, and the power of the dot being rework into overall weaponskill potency.


Circle of Scorn - Now on the GCD, same potency which is 100, but DoT is taken away. Uses TP or MP, I think TP would be the way to go to create self Clemency synergy.

Please don't switch CoS. It feels so nice and works so well overall. Its also such an awesome skill to get for hitting lvl 50.

Flash - Is now on the oGCD! same effect and MP usage as before, with a CD of something like 15-20s maybe more? maybe less. This will help with AoE and Single target aggro a lot, would be very handy on tank swaps and the such. Almost would say it might be worth Cross Classing now.

I would advise heavily against this. Flash is honestly more of a mitigation tool than something that should be spammed over and over again. If they would switch blind to auto attacks only and start allowing it to work in raids the true strength of this on demand blind in aoe would really show like they originally intended. It, plus block and parry chance, were a very powerful mix of GLD/PLD's passive mitigation.


Instead I suggest a much more heavy switch. Turn Sword and Shield oath into one spell gained at level 30. Replace the level 40 ability with Shield Swipe, yes the level 30 quest GLD ability. Lastly, add in generic spin-attack as the spammable AoE and level 30 GLD quest reward. A spammable AoE for threat gen that does damage isn't homologizing, its the base standard for how the game has evolved. You can tell the original idea was the tank marks the order and smaller pulls which would make PLD's lack of AoE make more sense. Now you would only do this when you have two melee whose AoE is too weak compared to their ability to melt single targets at once.

Divine Veil - Give me a visual animation when it's proc'ed to show it's radius, similar to deployment tactics.
I can get down with this actually.

DRK


Grit - No Longer on the GCD, has been put on the oGCD with a 10 second recast timer. MP Requirement still there.

Just remove the need for the GCD to finish before removing it.

Dark Dance - Dark Art's effect now just doubles the parry rate and grants a unique buff to 100% parry the next incoming attack to create synergy with Reprisal. This or do the same with how I want Sheltron to work, allow the use of Reprisal upon activation of Dark Dance. Making it OT friendly

This is a whole lot of getting without any real give. One Dark Arts isn't as much of a trade where as WAR gives crit chance on flanks and rear, and has a 90sec CD for 100 percent rate. Dark Arts should allow the forcing of a Reprisal instead of keeping it reliant on parry. But since I mainly use DRK in dungeons I like the ability as is in a bias way.

Dark Passenger - Dark Art's effect now silences rather then blinds, make that emphasis on DRK being the mage tank more apparent.

While it is odd the anti-magic tank doesn't have silence, I'm just going to let PLD and the support DPS have that bit of importance.

Shadow Wall - Once active, along with the 30% mitigation, gives an MP refresh while active and negates Dark Side's draining effect while active, make this more unique then a watered down Sentinel.

Shadow Wall will continue to be this obscure mixture of Sentinal and Vengence as long as we have Dark Mind. Its just the nature of its balance. That CD being only a minute long for 30 percent magic damage really makes it hard to have a more useful second 30 percent damage reduction.

Blood Weapon - Allowed to use while inside Grit. Who uses Grit anyways? (I've always been argued for this one, maybe it would be broke?)

While I do want this, and I do, it would be impossible to run out of MP unless you were doing something really bad. I think this is just one we're gonna have to accept. But I do want it.


Sole Survivor - Along with the HP and MP you get, restore 20% of TP as well, which would be 200TP

I personally want Sole Survivor to either get its PVP ability and be useful the entire fight, or be reworked into an actual self heal.

[Warkupo]

I'm not feeling the oGCD vibe for PLD/DRK because the damage reduction is instantly applied, versus stronger incoming heals. What I feel like needs to be a change is Sword Oath and Shield Oath need to be on the same button, and be an automatic switch, or to a slight extreme make Sword Oath a constant passive, so your only giving up one GCD instead of two when swapping stances.

You can set this up with a simple macro like

/micon "Whatever"
/ac "Sword Oath" <me>
/ac "Shield Oath" <me>

Granted, they *are* on the GCD so you run into the queuing issue, but you shouldn't be switching so frequently that this is even a percentage point DPS loss. You can also just activate Shield/Sword Oath while the other one is on and it will automatically drop your active Oath for the new one.

[Elhaym-]

I think everyone can agree that Flash is the lamest part of the PLD kit. If they did nothing else but change the animation, I'd be happy. Everything about the aesthetic is lame, from the sound to the casting animation to the actual spell animation.

This is completely ignoring the mechanics of the spell, which are (arguably) fine. It just seems so out of place. Compared to the WAR and DRK equivalent, Flash is just so LAME.

[Demkristo]

Snip

PLD

Shield Oath/Sword Oath - Yes please.

Sheltron - I wouldn't add access to the Shield Swipe even if you didn't block, it is supposed to be a reward for using this skill correctly. I think the best change for Sheltron is: "...if you successfully block an incoming attack, you will restore MP and deal X potency back to the attacker".

Clemency - 200 TP every 30 sec is a bit too OP. I think this skill is fine atm, i would rather heal myself/members 3 times in a row in clutch situations, than using it only once per 30 sec.

Circle of Scorn - I guess you wanted to add some aoe dmg potential, but as ppl said, it will nerf single target dmg of PLD. Tbh I would remove Flash and add a completely new aoe skill "Sword Swipe" - 180 degrees cleave in front of the pld, dealing X potency.

Flash - Remove this skill completely

Divine Veil - Some visual indicator would be nice

[Demkristo]

DRK

Grit - Honestly i think the mp cost is too huge for a skill that just swaps stances.

Dark Dance - I like this change, drk really needs manual Reprisal proc.

Dark Passenger - Silence doesnt work in this game :P I would add bleed effect if its empowered by Dark Arts

Shadow Wall - i don't know, the mp refresh doesnt make sense for me design wise, i have no clue how make this skill unique.

Blood Weapon - Its like having Sword stance with Shield Oath, there needs to be trade offs if you want to deal more dmg.

Sole Survivor - i would just reduce the cd by half.

[Nivison]

I agree with having DRKs and PLDs stances being oGCD. For those who are saying that its an instant DR compare to how WAR has to regain hp. Remember that WAR are based around sacrificing damage reduction to increase damage, which they in turn heal from.

[Shurrikhan]

For me, the main PLD/DRK issues are simply:

• WAR has an cost only in one stance change direction, which is then partly mitigated by Defiance's lingering effect on HoTs in exchange, while stances changes are necessarily output losses for both DRK and PLD, especially due to the GCD cost.

  That doesn't mean that they need to lose the GCD component, only that it must be mitigated or proportionately provide some other output. For instance, if Grit were to create an absorb shield upon use, that would be an compensating output. Even then, the aim should probably be towards what *feels* best, or smoothest, or most fun, which the mitigating the GCD component may be an especially appropriate means for, but it is still only one among multiple options.

• PLD and DRK, in increasing order, are dependent on the MT position for their damage. While the WAR can still benefit from off-role (offensive) use of his mitigation cooldowns, the others cannot. The PLD at least has Cover available, but the DRK has nothing.

  Allow your block and parry to affect attacks made against the Cover target when within x feet (or, these attacks literally attack you instead), and cause Cover to use the greater defense and magic defense of either you or the target. This allows Covered attacks to proc shield swipe. Give DRK some new form of defensive utility that can better allow its MT uses when forced out of the MT position, improving his arsenal's effective uptime. This could be something like changing Soul Survivor to be ally-targetable and duplicate your parry chance, parry procs, and your self-healing done onto the ally, while similarly benefiting from the ally's parry procs. Should either die, the other receives 20% HP, MP, and TP.

• PLD and DRK both have parts of their arsenals unaffected by what should be universal stats (e.g. Skill Speed).

  Merge Skill Speed and Spell Speed. Done.

• Both PLD and DRK seemingly suffer from counter-synergy.

  However, that could theoretically just be a form of balance, increasing the individual strength of certain toolkit components while keeping the combined strength at more reasonable levels. I suspect that is the case, and, if so, we just need to see that reasoning. If not, then Paladins should be able to block while casting, Blood Price should trigger mana gains for each attack attempted against the Dark Knight, therefore giving mana regardless of whether those attacks are dodged.

• Though PLDs abilities are all set to deal a theoretical 10 single-target potency per second, Spirits Within's output varies in a way that doesn't quite seem to match the design philosophy of the other tanks, or XIV tanks generally.

  Have Spirits Within heal for twice as much potency as was lost to the attack itself. At 10% HP, it'd deal 30 potency, but heal for 540. The portion healed is dependent only on AP, not on damage dealt.

• Tempered Will is lackluster most of the time.

  Drop the CD to 2 minutes and give it immunity to knockbacks, draw-in, and interruption. While Shelltron would seem the go-to ability to ensure your next cast goes off without a hitch, casting is actually instead the easiest way to ensure that a Shelltron goes off on exactly the attack you want it to, since it prevents all blocks, dodges, and parries during the cast. This would provide potentially use for Tempered Will even in fights that have no knockbacks or draw-ins, just as Plunge and Holmgang already enjoy.

That's about it, in my opinion. I do think there's something off about DRK evasion, but I think that's an issue for changes to undermechanics (e.g. adding percentile dodges) as to make it useful in raids as well, rather than a reason to remove it entirely. I still want to see a larger MP component to PLDs, and for Shadowskin and Shadow Wall to more unique, but I don't think either of those areas of change are especially necessary. I certainly do want to change Clemency to a CD, nor change Dark Passenger to a silence. I don't know what you were thinking when it comes to Flash and Circle of Scorn, since you've mostly just flipped the two, and traded out the one unique bit to PLD AoE rather than making it more useful.

[Ikki_Wiki]

Shield Oath and Grit can't be oGCD simply because they are a 20% damage reduction cooldown with no recast timer.
Warrior Defiance can be an oGCD because it is not a damage reduction cooldown. Inner Beast on the other hand is, and is a GCD.

Sword Oath has to be an oGCD, to put it on pair with Darkside and Deliverance.