Primals, Eikons and something I still don't understand

[Starkbeaumont]

What HW made clear is that the shape and form of a primal (and Eikon) actually depends on it's followers who summoned it. it's how they imagine their god. even koji once said that if we would encounter bismarck somewhere else he might look different cause they way ppl look at it. that basically leaves open the possibility that we gonna "re-fight" the old primals just with new looks someday.
what we also learned is that as long as you have enough believers (and energy) that almost anything could end up as a primal (go on dalamud fanatics, maybe one day you'll succeed...)

So now the part i don't understand. how is the consciousness of a primal determined? is it some spirit that's brooding all time until it get's summoned into a body? or is it the collective idea of the believers? and in either case how does it contact those before being summoned. we have seen tempered ppl before an actual summon, but who did that to them? some kind of self inflicted hypnosis?

i might have missed the answer to that question down the line somewhere... but if we know it already maybe someone could help out here

[Cilia]

It's actually made pretty clear in-universe during 3.0 and 3.4.

A primal is just a physical manifestation of someone, or a group's, fervent belief and desires. Ifrit is as he is because the amalj'aa wanted a leader to help defend their territory and conquer new lands. Ravana is as he is because the Vath wanted a leader to lead them on conquests. Etc etc. There is a basic principle the individual or group wants, which the primal manifests as, which gives the foundation of their personality. The same could be said to be true of their appearance.

It's been said that, after a primal is first summoned, it will continue to exist in the aether due to its worshipers. (This is likely the practical application of tempering - ensuring the primal will always have followers and thus always exist.) Theoretically if all a primal's followers die, and it is forgotten, it will truly die as well. No other way can even theoretically kill a primal for good.

However no primal comes out the way the summoner wants. Bahamut was a twisted mockery of the original, Shiva isn't the real deal but just a manifestation of Ysayle's idea of Shiva, etc. This usually makes them malevolent. Ramuh is the only exception.

Well... Alexander is too, ironic given he was summoned for nefarious purposes in the first place. Or perhaps that's the twist?

As shown in 3.4, the emotions of the summoner or group that summons a primal will also influence a given summoning. It still maintains the core appearance due to that appearance being iconic, but the psyche is different - theoretically you could have a genuinely kind and benevolent Ramuh, for instance. Theoretically.

[Starkbeaumont]

hmmm ok, but their conciousness seems to be more than just be based on an idea.

well, though that would mean if the idea dies (no matter how) the primal will be gone as well?!
and it also means that we could have multiple primals around all going by the same name but in the end they would be different cause they are based on different ideas? and even if the good amalj'aa would summon a different kind of ifrit, one that helps them to bring peace and prosperity to their tribe, we, the WoL, would still have to go out and kill it cause it would drain the ether out of the land eventually?
it just strikes me that the beast tribes just want the best for themself and we are more or less the bad guys by killing them instead of helping them to achieve their goals in a different way...

[TinyRedLeaf]

That would mean if the idea dies (no matter how) the primal will be gone as well?! We could have multiple primals around all going by the same name but in the end they would be different cause they are based on different ideas?

Yes, that would be the case, and there is in fact an example from the game to support the theory.

In the finale of the level 50 summoner quest-line, the antagonist summoned the egi of the elder primal Belias. The egi looked like a bigger, darker version of the Ifrit-egi.

More importantly, Belias appeared to be a fire-based primal, just like Ifrit.

The implications are that Belias could be an older, and now forgotten, version of Ifrit.

[Annana]

we are more or less the bad guys by killing them instead of helping them to achieve their goals in a different way...

Sure, the Circle of Ash could summon a benevolent version of Ifrit if they wanted to, but they don't. They find the reliance on a god sickening and against everything that the Amal'jja stand for. That said, what you're getting at isn't unreasonable. The Kobolds, for instance only summoned Titan because they felt threatened by Limsa Lominsa breaking their treaty. And we did have to venture into the Navel and kill Titan, because as you said, he was draining the aether from the land.

Then you also need to remember that Tempering is not always a conscious act by the Primal. Ramuh mentions that the Touched were tempered by simply being around Ramuh. So far, Ramuh and Shiva (post ARR) are the only primals that have not been openly hostile to us, so take that as you will.

[Jandor]

As I understand it, you need a soul for the foundation, belief for the blueprints, aether for the construction and yet more aether (or prayer, primals seem to use aether whenever possible though) for sustenance.

If I remember right, souls can't be destroyed.
So Ifrit gets killed, his soul returns to the lifestream, his thralls pray until all the fragments are drawn back together, they gather some crystals, do the summoning ritual and he's back.

[LineageRazor]

One thing that I'm not sure has ever been firmly established, is whether Primals have any continuity of memory between summonings, or whether their knowledge and memories, like their bodies, are formed entirely by the beliefs of their summoners? For example, if you told Ramuh a story out of earshot of any of his Sylph followers, then killed him, the next time he was summoned, would he remember the story? Or even remember you telling it? Is there some core part of the primal that remains in existence in the Aether, or is the entire being snuffed out each time it's killed, and given a whole new set of memories every time it is summoned? If there is continuity of memory, does a primal still remember things from their first summoning, however many thousands of years ago?

it just strikes me that the beast tribes just want the best for themself and we are more or less the bad guys by killing them instead of helping them to achieve their goals in a different way...

This is exactly the case, and pretty much blatantly spelled out in the conflict between the Kobolds and Limsa Lominsa. The Kobolds and Limsa have a treaty. LIMSA (not the Kobolds!) is regularly breaking that treaty, and encroaching on Kobold territory. The Kobolds are blatantly justified in expressing their ire with this - but due to the inherent dangers involved, we simply can't stand by and allow Titan to run around, sucking up all the Aether.

So, why don't we direct our energies toward smoothing things over between the Kobolds and Limsa? Simply put, it's not our job, and it's not our forte. We're not politicians or diplomats by training, and we can't afford to remain tied to La Noscia when there are primals springing up all over Eorzea. This is a job for the Lominsan leaders to deal with - and Merlwyb is doing her best, really. The people she's in charge of, though, are literally a bunch of pirates and hooligans, used to doing whatever they please, whenever they please. Keeping a tight rein on them is hard work, even for someone as badass as Merlwyb. They're working toward a solution, and optimistically may someday find a lasting peace with the Kobolds. Likely not within the scope of this game, however, as we still need an excuse to be able to kill Kobolds whenever it's convenient to. XD

[Ibi]

As shown in 3.4, the emotions of the summoner or group that summons a primal will also influence a given summoning. It still maintains the core appearance due to that appearance being iconic, but the psyche is different - theoretically you could have a genuinely kind and benevolent Ramuh, for instance. Theoretically.

It is worth noting that a genuinely kind and benevolent Ramuh would still drain the land of aether if allowed to persist, so the Scions would still consider it to be their duty to defeat and disperse him.

[Cilia]

It is worth noting that a genuinely kind and benevolent Ramuh would still drain the land of aether if allowed to persist, so the Scions would still consider it to be their duty to defeat and disperse him.

That's true, and is something that Ramuh himself is aware of.

It's also covered by Alexander who, using his powers of time manipulation, engineered his own defeat because of that problem in spite of his desire being to make the world a truly better place. He could have stopped the Calamity but chooses not to because of the problems with aether drain.

My point was that the Primal's mind has some baseline, but the wishes of the summoner(s) do influence a given incarnation's personality. Ramuh is a harsh judge, but if enough sylphs truly wanted "the wise man of the wood" there's no reason to believe they couldn't summon something like that. The problem is most primals are summoned as a desperate self-defense measure, and as such they are always violent towards us.

[myahele]

We don't know what makes an Eikon different from a Primal just yet. It's confirmed that each Eikon is stored in a proto-Dalamud like structure for the purpose of harnessing their powers, at least.

It seem like primal Bahamut was as strong, if not stronger than each Eikon, so raw power might not be that distinction.

Since each Triad's name is based of off religion's creation mythology in real life then maybe that could provide a clue?

Excluding the real life reference to their names so far we know that Sephirot was the 1st Sacred Tree and he claims to be the "incarnation of life itself." Sophia is obsessed with balance.