RIP WHM

[SuzakuCMX]

Did you guys forget the fact that AST is retarded braindead boring and is just a abomination copy/paste fail hybrid of WHM/SCH?
Even with the meta, I would rather uninstall the game than to pick up an AST.

Somebody sounds a little angry.

AST is now a considerable flex pick. I still think DiAst is better than NoctAst since being able to extend duration of regens is ridiculous for being able to DPS as an AST. Noct Ast is just better able to replace a SCH in fights where you absolutely need that shield for tank busters but I don't think the extra 10% healing makes up for the double regens, though I do think someone did the math and Aspected Benefic is almost as MP Efficient as a normal Benefic in situations where the target isn't already shielded, so you can use Aspected Benefic almost exclusively for healing when the tank isn't getting busted.

Also 10% AoE damage boost on the group is ridiculous.

[Osmond]

I can see AST being a lil boring due to the changes in the cards cause it's going to make ppl focused on getting the balance more than ever. Was happy, but then thinking about it it doesn't make sense. For the bole buff I can accept, but the balance? I can see alot of ppl just go crazy asking for it especially w/ either AoE, Extended, or Enhanced w/ Time Dilation or CO. The Spear buff to me is needed cause no one don't really use it like that.

[Nekotee]

I can see AST being a lil boring due to the changes in the cards cause it's going to make ppl focused on getting the balance more than ever. Was happy, but then thinking about it it doesn't make sense. For the bole buff I can accept, but the balance? I can see alot of ppl just go crazy asking for it especially w/ either AoE, Extended, or Enhanced w/ Time Dilation or CO. The Spear buff to me is needed cause no one don't really use it like that.

You're losing more time and opportunity baiting à balance than using all card of your deck
Except for spire every card are useful and provide good support you just have to learn how to use and maximise it in a split second each draw

...

I think there is no limit if you go in a pre-made team

[FeliAiko]

Going for Balance (with Arrow as a consolation prize) is the only logical way to go now. The buff to it is pretty much the message SE's sent out. Tanks don't map out CDs on the basis they'll get Boles, so that increase is merely a bonus than something you plan your playstyle around.

[Fevelle]

No one is asking for mitigation tools for WHM. The problem here is that with the current buff, even on progression, having a healer capable of putting HPS numbers close to WHM and adding to the raid DPS is better than bringing a WHM just for "safety". Once a fight is on farm, there is absolutely no reason to bring a WHM.

Our class lacks 'flavor' - and this is a problem since Heavensward released. WHM has always been a plain job, but by taking away exclusive traits they made it TOO plain.

Also I want to add that the argument about "WHM is a basic healer in every FF game" is not entirely true. White Mages had acess to spells like Arise (a full-life raise) and Reraise (auto-raise) that, if implemented (even in a nerfed form) could totally change the current situation.

[Rai_Takara]

But it's also true if a buster doesn't go over your hp pool, mitigation won't be necessary. Main reason i miss 2.x raiding where stuff actually forced us to meld vit and mitigation on busters. Even t11 which was in the easiest coil tier needed virus, adlo and stoneskin to survive the phase swap after adds.

We're at the point that if a WHM is absolutely needed, AST/SCH won't be able to heal the fight. But because yoshida wants all healers to make part, we'll always have fights that don't work like 2.x ones where you needed mitigation just to survive and then raw heal to be topped off before the next buster. 3.0 and the bad decisions concerning healers is what put us in this situation.

HP mitigated is HP that doesn't need to be healed. Just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

If raids are such that heavy mitigation is needed, it would be WHM/SCH who would have trouble not AST/SCH. The only way WHM will become mandatory is if there is an encounter that requires Cure 3 to survive.

[mp-please]

HP mitigated is HP that doesn't need to be healed. Just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

I didn't said it had no value, i said that it works both ways around. As long damage doesn't go over hp values and there is no incoming damage in the next 2 gcds, any healer can outheal any buster.


Lets assume every no-tank party member has 20k hp and no crits (lets leave rng out of this, values slightly bloated to take fairy in consideration).

Aoe buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
SCH uses deployment and shields everyone for 4k hp. +Adlo +Deployment tactics
That's 14k that still needs to be healed. +Emergency tactics +Succor +Indomitability +1 aether stack
Roughly 9k hp got healed in 2 gcds, lets have the co-healer/fairy/hots handle the rest.

Adlo+deployment precast for 4k mitigated + 9k healed in 2 gcds for 2386 mp + 1 aether stack and 5 skills used. (energy drain has a rough 900 mp return so we can consider 3286 mp was used)

Again the same buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
WHM uses divine seal + cure III.
8k damage healed. 10k to go. +Divine seal +Cure III
8k damage healed. 2k to go. +Cure III
Hots/cohealer/fairy can handle the rest

16k damage healed with 3 skills, 1 precast, 3358 mp used.

Literally the same thing, mitigation can only be considered superior if we have a party with 20k hp and buster deals 22k damage for example. Also not doing for AST cause id have to do for diurnal and nocturnal. Should be pretty similar to both above anyways.

This is also what kills WHM, SCH shouldn't be able to heal a buster in 2 gcds even though it uses more ogcd skills and then we have the fights that give you 3 more more gcds to top everyone off even making the heal check more lax to non whm healers.
This was actually balanced on 2.x since succor wasn't able to heal everyone off (no ET), indo didn't exist and you couldn't shield everyone off in 2 buttons.

[Rai_Takara]

I didn't said it had no value, i said that it works both ways around. As long damage doesn't go over hp values and there is no incoming damage in the next 2 gcds, any healer can outheal any buster.


Lets assume every no-tank party member has 20k hp and no crits (lets leave rng out of this, values slightly bloated to take fairy in consideration).

Aoe buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
SCH uses deployment and shields everyone for 4k hp. +Adlo +Deployment tactics
That's 14k that still needs to be healed. +Emergency tactics +Succor +Indomitability +1 aether stack
Roughly 9k hp got healed in 2 gcds, lets have the co-healer/fairy/hots handle the rest.

Adlo+deployment precast for 4k mitigated + 9k healed in 2 gcds for 2386 mp + 1 aether stack and 5 skills used. (energy drain has a rough 900 mp return so we can consider 3286 mp was used)

Again the same buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
WHM uses divine seal + cure III.
8k damage healed. 10k to go. +Divine seal +Cure III
8k damage healed. 2k to go. +Cure III
Hots/cohealer/fairy can handle the rest

16k damage healed with 3 skills, 1 precast, 3358 mp used.

Literally the same thing, mitigation can only be considered superior if we have a party with 20k hp and buster deals 22k damage for example. Also not doing for AST cause id have to do for diurnal and nocturnal. Should be pretty similar to both above anyways.

This is also what kills WHM, SCH shouldn't be able to heal a buster in 2 gcds even though it uses more ogcd skills and then we have the fights that give you 3 more more gcds to top everyone off even making the heal check more lax to non whm healers.
This was actually balanced on 2.x since succor wasn't able to heal everyone off (no ET), indo didn't exist and you couldn't shield everyone off in 2 buttons.

Putting AST in a similar situation, we don't have a cure 3 heal bomb. We also currently don't need one. We can just mitigate it and heal less (compared to a WHM), but accomplishing the same thing as a WHM. This is done by relying on a combination of healing and mitigation rather than pure healing.

So in using your example:
18k raid wide damage to non tanks.
Disable + Collective reduces that to 14.4k damage (3.6k mitigated).
Synastry + Helios x 3 = 12.3k healed.
Collective HoT 2 ticks = 3.6k healed. (sometimes could get a 3rd tick is timed right)
Total healing done = 15.9k

3 skills used, 3180 MP used (note: basing this of my ilvl which is 247).

I think that's right, but do check my math if it doesn't look right.

There's also sustained AoE healing to consider. SCH cannot sustain heal and in certain fights like A11S, it proper cycling of mitigation and healing is needed.

[mp-please]

So in using your example:
18k raid wide damage to non tanks.
Disable + Collective reduces that to 14.4k damage (3.6k mitigated) precast
1st gcd Synastry + Helios = 4.1k healed. 10.3 to go
2nd gcd Helios = +4.1k healed, 6.2k to go which can be covered by fairy/hots/cohealer
+Collective HoT 2 ticks = 3.6k healed.
Total healing done = 15.4k, 2.6k heal that can be covered by fairy/remaining CU hots/cohealer
5 skills used, 2 precasted with 2120 MP used

There's also sustained AoE healing to consider. SCH cannot sustain heal and in certain fights like A11S, it proper cycling of mitigation and healing is needed.

My math wasn't too precise either, just changed some stuff so it's similar to what i've done (mainly the 2 gcd part since you had a extra helios cast that wasn't needed), but yea it's within what i was expecting of ast. And what you've pointed out is also true about SCH, there is no DT or ET after a rotation like the one i've pointed out.

So yea it's easy to see how all that whm has on it's favor is how readily available it is to heal burst damage. AST still needs disable+CU, SCH still needs ET+DT while WHM doesn't need exactly need DS to cure III spam but this kind of burst healing isn't exactly necessary on this patch due to it's lower difficulty nature.
If 4.0 raiding is similar to the creator, WHM will definitely need some major changes, not because it's bad, but because it's way too good.


Edit: Meanwhile a year ago.

The main issue about white mage is that burst healing starts becoming irrelevant as more people learn the fight and get overgeared for it, we could say burst healing is negatively proportional to overgear. Now it's not noticeable because back on ARR 2.0-2.1 required a lot of burst healing, but some months after SCOB got released together with soldiery tomestones people were so overgeared that burst healing became irrelevant and so the "sch can solo heal everything" began and that kept going to fcob because yoshida didn't stop and think "damn, i130 might be a bit too much for this kind of instance".

Cure III
(...) However like i said before the usefulness of cure III is negatively proportional to overgear and this game has history of throwing unnecessary gear levels to people to the point FCOB was being solo healed a month after it's release. We'll eventually get again to the point where a single medica II does the job and currently astrologian can do that with negligible losses. To add up they even gave scholars the ability to burst aoe heal with indomitability.

(...)
Once again overgear is a huge concern of mine as nobody cares about healing numbers as long healing is done and in a few months nobody will care if white mage heals for more than everyone else because that heal bonus will only result on overheal. All people will care will be "can the healer dps while it doesn't need to heal?"
SCH does their job as the summoner lite that they're, AST has no issues in maintaining the DoTs and buff everyone with their cards that has absolutely no mp cost and then we have WHM with the best single target dps that has to spend millions on melds just to hit stuff with their "best" dps which result on a huge mnd, pie and det loss compared to full i210 accessories.

It's like clockwork.

[KarstenS]

HP mitigated is HP that doesn't need to be healed. Just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

One word: Mana efficiency.

Healing through damage is in nearly every situation more mana efficent than pre shielding, as long the incoming damage < full life.

Point 1 is: Small heals and HoTs cost always less MP per HP than bigger heals/heals with shield

Point 2 is: Pre shielding is usually done by heals with shield effect (exception: Stoneskin). In the most cases this heal is going to be 100% or close to 100% overheal. -> Wasted mana.