Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Not sure why people would have multiple gear sets with the addition of horizontal progression. Is this an FFXI thing?

Because if you don't need different gear sets, why even bother with making it horizontal progression? Horizontal progression implies that you'll need to change up your character on a per fight basis, whether it's by gear, talent trees, loadouts, what have you. The only game I've found that managed to do it well is Monster Hunter, and even then it's possible to brute force your way with a single gear set. Mostly.

[MomomiMomi]

Because if you don't need different gear sets, why even bother with making it horizontal progression? Horizontal progression implies that you'll need to change up your character on a per fight basis, whether it's by gear, talent trees, loadouts, what have you. The only game I've found that managed to do it well is Monster Hunter, and even then it's possible to brute force your way with a single gear set. Mostly.

That's not at all what I think of with horizontal progression. FFXI lasted as long as it did at the same level cap with the core concept of sidegrades. These were not necessary things to get because they were not upgrades. They were different options to reach the same end. They were usually extremely minor upgrades at best, or sometimes extremely slightly inferior.

The whole system is based around the lack of having to upgrade, and is exactly the kind of thing that Yoshi was talking about that he wants in XIV and says he's doing with ilvl but isn't, because the ilvl system requires you to go out and get that piece of gear, the very thing he said he doesn't want.

XI's gear swapping during combat is a completely separate thing, and was definitely a negative of the game.

Basically, it is a desire to have ilvl tiers last longer than they do.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That's not at all what I think of with horizontal progression. FFXI lasted as long as it did at the same level cap with the core concept of sidegrades. These were not necessary things to get because they were not upgrades. They were different options to reach the same end. They were usually extremely minor upgrades at best, or sometimes extremely slightly inferior.

The whole system is based around the lack of having to upgrade, and is exactly the kind of thing that Yoshi was talking about that he wants in XIV and says he's doing with ilvl but isn't, because the ilvl system requires you to go out and get that piece of gear, the very thing he said he doesn't want.

XI's gear swapping during combat is a completely separate thing, and was definitely a negative of the game.

Basically, it is a desire to have ilvl tiers last longer than they do.

Then what incentive does this provide? Why farm whatever content for negligible upgrades or downright inferior gear unless it's for glamour? Furthermore, if we do not have to upgrade constantly, how do you then incentivize people to do content? Just a throw away example, say they removed weekly caps. I guarantee people would grind out exactly the amount they needed for progression/glamour then never touch the roulette again. Now I know you didn't reference that specifically, but when changing a system, you need to consider how to ensure people will still do the content consistently because you'll always have a flux of newer players and you don't want them trapped in hour long queues.

[MomomiMomi]

Then what incentive does this provide? Why farm whatever content for negligible upgrades or downright inferior gear unless it's for glamour? Furthermore, if we do not have to upgrade constantly, how do you then incentivize people to do content? Just a throw away example, say they removed weekly caps. I guarantee people would grind out exactly the amount they needed for progression/glamour then never touch the roulette again. Now I know you didn't reference that specifically, but when changing a system, you need to consider how to ensure people will still do the content consistently because you'll always have a flux of newer players and you don't want them trapped in hour long queues.

It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

[Zumi]

It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

I wouldn't want to see FFXI style gearing in FFXIV. This is what kind of turned FFXI into a chat room and lead a lot of people to not do the new content. Horizontal progression is an oxymoron it doesn't really exist what FFXI had was vertical progression on a very small scale. What you already said the upgrades were minor. For example FFXI came out with a medium difficulty event Salvage. It had drop rates on nms in the zone in the range of around 1%. I actually knew people who killed this turtle NM 300+ times for the monk body. But the itemization was that a several of the pieces were worse had worse stats then gear from 6 years ago that dropped from Sky or hnms, however about half of those pieces of gear that were very slightly better maybe had 1-3 more attack or accuracy or 1% more haste something really small. The hard core playerbase in FFXI were like yea I am going to run Salvage daily even though it has 1% drop rates for those really small upgrades which may effect character damage by around 1% but its best in slot. However the more casual players were like I am not doing this it doesn't offer a big enough upgrade I am good with my sky gear from 6 years ago.

So for these players who didn't want to run the new content for the small upgrades they quit never bought the next expansion which was Wings of the Goddess. Some of them just logged in the game used it as a chat room. Many people will not do content with really small upgrades.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

Ok, but if they kept the gear acquisition the same but it was all horizontal, and new higher level gear only came once a year. What happens when your already gotten "decently" good gear in a few weeks? You dont need gear any more, so why keep playing?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

We can already do that. No content outside Savage requires even ilvl 250 gear. In fact, I'll almost certainly be doing Sophia EX at ilvl 234.

And how many people complain that invalidates the rewards for clearing Savage? People do 24-man raids because it's a necessity to upgrade your gear from ilvl 230 to 240. If you only needed lore to buy ilvl 240. WC might well be dead content on the basis of how mechanically intensifying it can get. People generally gravitate towards the path of least resistance. If you make it so everything drops similar gear, the easiest means of obtaining it will be what content gets done.

[Kaurie]

Because if you don't need different gear sets, why even bother with making it horizontal progression? Horizontal progression implies that you'll need to change up your character on a per fight basis, whether it's by gear, talent trees, loadouts, what have you. The only game I've found that managed to do it well is Monster Hunter, and even then it's possible to brute force your way with a single gear set. Mostly.

It doesn't imply that to me. It just implies that there are multiple sets of gear all within the same basic power level. This gear is catered to differing playstyles.

While not the best example, one can look at Guild Wars 2. Here there are sets for survival, others for burst damage, others for damage over time, others for support etc. etc. You can also mix and match for balance (i.e. damage + survival, or go full damage for that glass cannon feel). It doesn't mean that I need to swap gear as I do things, it just means I can gear to my playstyle.

When I think of Horizontal progression in FFXIV, I mostly want more ways to obtain gear at the same ilvl. There is basically only 1 (or 2) gearsets per ilvl and you have no choice on secondary stats. I'd prefer a system like WoW's where you can get gear in basically any content and the secondary stats are randomized, so you can continue to progress with minor upgrades to your secondary stats (i.e. trade off -60 det for +60 crit).

I like a system that is both vertical and horizontal. This game is very much only vertical, and Guild Wars 2 went too much in the way of horizontal.

Finally, when I think of horizontal progression, I do not think about having extra fire damage which does more vs ice enemies and I do not think about changing gear while IN combat.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

More options would be nice, but I can't see it changing anything up.

[Jetstream_Fox]

So a game that offers character builds and such takes to much time and Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it? What? Diablo 3 and even the Borderlands series are very time friendly and I'd even say they don't get that involved with their builds until about half way through the level cap, similar how 14 doesn't really pick up until 30.

It seems to me that Yoshi just doesn't have the drive to add builds and elements into this game, he maybe trying to please every crowd this game has, so why not release some side content that does builds? I mean if people can get a RP icon next to their name, I don't see how they couldn't add a new game type.