DevTalk: Class Rebalancing Post 1.19

[Physic]

FFXI disagrees, leveling there was challenging and rewarding, where you would need a team effort to beat a rabbit. (before the introduction of wings of the goddess EP) it was tactical. That's what I would expect from an RPG game developed in Japan.

ffxi wasnt challenging in leveling. The major difference was that monsters had more HP. People rarely used any high end tactics on grind mobs, they cured whatever he did. Monsters in this game actually have more variety in types of attacks and abilities they use in general. In fact most of the non beast mobs have all the same skills a charachter does. There is a lot more positional effects as well, and avoidable aoe.

Thing is, people will pick the easiest path, which is tank and spank 9/10 times.

honestly ffxi one mob at a time got pretty dull.

[Lienn]

FFXI disagrees, leveling there was challenging and rewarding, where you would need a team effort to beat a rabbit. (before the introduction of wings of the goddess EP) it was tactical. That's what I would expect from an RPG game developed in Japan.

"Challenging"? Colibri PT? Bones PT? Rampage PT? Imp PT?

Not really. IMO FFXI was never challenging other than while playing with lowbies...Past 35 it was very easy to grind...the challenging aspect was only for the abilities restrictions of the patheic mechanics of that game...like SAm having to stick with the lv1 WS (forgot the name) until 45 (if not mistaken) when you learn Tachi Jinpu just because the game wasn't able to offer you a single good thing during this period.

IMO the only "challenging" part of FFXI grind was to find enough BRDs...

[Sheth]

"Challenging"? Colibri PT? Bones PT? Rampage PT? Imp PT?

Not really. IMO FFXI was never challenging other than while playing with lowbies...Past 35 it was very easy to grind...the challenging aspect was only for the abilities restrictions of the patheic mechanics of that game...like SAm having to stick with the lv1 WS (forgot the name) until 45 (if not mistaken) when you learn Tachi Jinpu just because the game wasn't able to offer you a single good thing during this period.

IMO the only "challenging" part of FFXI grind was to find enough BRDs...

Yes it's much more challenging with all of this you mentioned than what we have now, skip the last expansion packs I have no idea which one are you talking about because i quit the game when they introduced some new areas but am sure I was there when they had chains of promathia. Anyways, when I think about Crawler's Nest level area then forward till you reach 75, yes it was very challenging and fun, it takes a team effort. I don't know how they screwed it up because I wasn't there when they did but am guessing the wings of the goddess part where the TP thing you mentioned occurred ?

[PSxpert2011]

OK then, I'll put Heavy Strike back in the game, and reduce the cooldown on Pummel to 15 seconds.

Yooooooou.... I mean, SE took it out just because it was too soon? During the beta, Heavy Strike was there and some other abilities and action from other classes. I sure hope they reinstate them at later levels in the future!

I use "Pummel" all the time just because I don't have anything else to do or use (other than (VictimizeFTW"). I mean, pummel give you TP but not by much. It's just a "filler" action to gain TP and do some dmg.

I would rather it be tweeked and given its own animation other than punching oppose to actual pummeling! (am thinking pummeling from FFVI and how one of the agents from the Matrix, 2:30 used it) That's F!!!ken REAL Pummeling! High Fantasy my @$$ v.v get to work SE XD (kidding) =P









:Beer: @2:30 min

[Sheth]

ffxi wasnt challenging in leveling. The major difference was that monsters had more HP. People rarely used any high end tactics on grind mobs, they cured whatever he did. Monsters in this game actually have more variety in types of attacks and abilities they use in general. In fact most of the non beast mobs have all the same skills a charachter does. There is a lot more positional effects as well, and avoidable aoe.

Thing is, people will pick the easiest path, which is tank and spank 9/10 times.

honestly ffxi one mob at a time got pretty dull.

Please give me examples because I can't find any, give me something in FFXIV that needs something like dispel or a good timed AM to finish half of the high HP the mob has...this game doesn't offer any challenge still. And not really I don't agree most monsters sucked in FFXI to begin with (keep in mind I have no idea in which phase you have been playing) mine was when the game had chains of promathia all monsters that we were lvling on were giving us a hard time because we needed to be focused the whole time while playing.

[Rentahamster]

The removal of sentinel is an example...it is a separated class to share "multiple tank classes" a 100% affinity performance of the basic tanking pack. By removing it, it would actually bring more issues than solutions. I actually would move some actions from GLA to SEN, like Obcess and Cover, that require positioning.

How would removing the sentinel class and giving all its skills to gladiator be a problem? The only class that ever uses those skills is gladiator, anyway. The only reason "Sentinel" as a class exists is to give shield skills to gladiator. The current implementation is redundant and pointless. The only classes that even use shields are GLA, THM, and CJN, and the two mage classes are not tank classes. They should be given their own magic-based defensive shield skills.

Removing the evade restriction of simian trash is another...it's the core concept of PGL being a retaliation class...if you remove this it also loses its identity. Instead of removing this, would be nice PGL having this increased, allowing a chaining of retaliatory actions, like having Haymaker forcing an opening so you could always follow it with another retaliatory WS, or having Follow Through and Pounce also causing openings so, even if it wasn't facing you, you could start a WS combo.

The evade restriction might be the core concept of PGL being a retaliation class, but in execution, it fails miserably. It complicates the PGL tank role and diminishes the PGL DD role, since you can't use Simian Thrash when you're DDing at all.

No one ever plays PGL with a retaliation identity because it just doesn't work currently.

Another...multishot with provoke-like mechanics? That's not a good idea at all...if they don't want ARC to spam multishot then make more WS affected by if...like multishot adding extra hits to barrage or increasing the number of hits a monster bound by shadowbind could take before freeing from it. Maybe Puncture having a cone AoE increase based on number of nocked arrows.

The goal of my version of multishot isn't to give archer a provoke. It's to give the move a cost so that the archer needs to be aware of when is the right time to use it. Since the move generates hate, you can't use it at the beginning of a pull. You have to pre-nock arrows before a fight, or nock arrows only after the tank has secured hate.

Multishot has its own identity aside from weaponskills and is what makes the archer class unique and special. It should be kept in the realm of normal attacks.


I'm still not sure how you are getting the impression that my skill changes don't align with the outline. Do they not make GLA and PGL better DDs and tanks? Do they not make archer a better DD?

[Lienn]

Yes it's much more challenging with all of this you mentioned than what we have now, skip the last expansion packs I have no idea which one are you talking about because i quit the game when they introduced some new areas but am sure I was there when they had chains of promathia. Anyways, when I think about Crawler's Nest level area then forward till you reach 75, yes it was very challenging and fun, it takes a team effort. I don't know how they screwed it up because I wasn't there when they did but am guessing the wings of the goddess part where the TP thing you mentioned occurred ?

Nah...bones and rampage PTs happened since Rise of Zilart (NA PS2 release)...the only difference between before and now was the DD type. I don't call challenging a game where the healer can fall asleep, wake an hour later an no one even noticed you were sleeping. It's like i said...FFXI only was challenging 35-...but also because you didn't had good abilities still (they purposely put them 37+ for SJ nerf).

But still, the challenging monsters were always avoided, just like Physics said...in FFXI you had leeches, sheeps, lizards...and they all often ignored exactly because they could offer a challenging battle...it was like goblin, crawlers, worm or crab 1-70 there, then moving to one of the party setups i previously said.

[Lienn]

How would removing the sentinel class and giving all its skills to gladiator be a problem? The only class that ever uses those skills is gladiator, anyway. The only reason "Sentinel" as a class exists is to give shield skills to gladiator. The current implementation is redundant and pointless. The only classes that even use shields are GLA, THM, and CJN, and the two mage classes are not tank classes. They should be given their own magic-based defensive shield skills.

You forgeting this game has 2 tank classes that can use shield. THM does is a tank class (or at least was until the dev team ignorance mess it). It has all aspects a tank class need and, just like ARC, was just "too good" on its role so they nerfed it in a way it lost its characteristics.

The evade restriction might be the core concept of PGL being a retaliation class, but in execution, it fails miserably. It complicates the PGL tank role and diminishes the PGL DD role, since you can't use Simian Thrash when you're DDing at all.

No one ever plays PGL with a retaliation identity because it just doesn't work currently.

PGL worked perfectly until 1.18. Just like GLA...they both could do both DD and tank roles perfectly, without losing their concepts. Again, shame on dev team.

The goal of my version of multishot isn't to give archer a provoke. It's to give the move a cost so that the archer needs to be aware of when is the right time to use it. Since the move generates hate, you can't use it at the beginning of a pull. You have to pre-nock arrows before a fight, or nock arrows only after the tank has secured hate.

Multishot has its own identity aside from weaponskills and is what makes the archer class unique and special. It should be kept in the realm of normal attacks.

The thing about multishot is that it's actually meaningless righ now. It doesn't increase much the damage, it doesn't generate extra TP...if it was to generate enmity even to a provoke then it should become cross class so tanks couls start nocking throwing weapons to use the enmity. =P Before it generated a damage spike followed by an enmity spike...with your suggestion we would have just the enmity spike.

I'm still not sure how you are getting the impression that my skill changes don't align with the outline. Do they not make GLA and PGL better DDs and tanks? Do they not make archer a better DD?

I'm not saying your suggestions aren't making the classes stronger...but a better parse result doesn't make the class better...and when you give up from the core concepts to just add better numbers you end just like PGL is now...it was extremely fun to play before 1.18...right now it might be way easier to play and stronger...but it's not better than the original class because it lacks in the main aspect a game must have...fun.

Another example is MRD. The current MRD would beat the hell out of the original MRD performance-wise...still, it's not better than the original one since it's boring as hell to play nowadays.

[Eldaena]

I feel like marauder and gladiator are fairly evenly matched pertaining to tanking. This is only based off of NM fights and the current Primal fight, but I see it like this:

Marauder has more DPS (particularly AOE), but Gladiator has more hp + def (particularly good solo boss tanking). As far as enmity goes, marauder deals damage and gladiator has abilities to sustain enmity. Typically, I start to feel like I have to heal marauder more than gladiator, but in the end the opponent's hp most likely is going down more quickly as well.

On another topic, surprisingly, I was starting to feel classes were more balanced with recent patches. People seem to think archer was severly nerfed, but I also think players haven't fully realized archers potential and how to use archer now. (Try some Dex and remember you have the highest MP pool of all the dps classes.) Everyone thinks Marauder is now overpowered, when in reality they're just particularly good at doing aoe damage. Which I feel marauders always should have been. Pugilists got a big boost with misses now counting as evades for things like Simian Thrash and are particularly good at keeping themselves alive. And we're all aware of the lancer love. =p

Honestly, the only classes that feel particularly muddled right now are the mage ones. Other than conjurer having better heals/raises and thaumaturge having a bit more mp and magical damage, most of their abilities are interchangeable, as are their roles in combat. Since there are only two mage classes currently, they should have more prominently defined positions in combat, which I'm sure we will see in the upcoming patch.

Overall, in my LS we use every single class there is because they are all potentially good for most end-game events. I understand they want to streamline classes more and our input is relatively valuable, but I sort of feel the thoughts of a single person (including my own) are not going to be accurate for an entire player base. I feel like the dev team should put a lot of thought into how they want to change the classes further, and listen to player input, however...

They are developers for a reason. I'd like to see them actually make some of these changes in regards to their own thoughts on how the classes should be.

P.S. Emnity x Multishot = scary idea imo

Pugilist does some of the most damage on Ifrit (More than all the lancers I've played with)
Lancers are great
Pugilist is a lot of fun to play, deals lots of damage, and is a very good self-sustaining class
Marauder is a lot of fun to play, a good tank, and the best aoe!
Gladiator's shield abilities used to be completely overpowered =p
Gladiators have a better MP pool than MRD, more DEF, and more HP
Animation lock is the enemy of every class, but most of all archer.
Archers + Dex = nice! (And they also have a large MP pool as well!)

Mages are the most muddled classes at this time, but the increase in how much HP one can heal and the usefulness of some forgotten spells was well-received in my opinion in the latest patches.
(And though the MP reduction and MP consumption increase was difficult to adjust to, it's more fun to overcome such obstacles when playing mage classes now. It's challenging which is good. <3)