Roles for Samurai, Red Mage, Dancer

[Welsper59]

Are you saying then that attacking people in the back is not dishonorable?

All right, a question with some bite. Backstabs are generally not an honorable means to attack. But we are talking about combat in an RPG, you know where mechanics, gameplay fun, that sort of thing exists. Had this been in part of the storyline itself, like how NINs talked about honor (I think... it's been a while), the combat mechanics do not define the roles "honor". Such non-combat related things in a game do not matter to the philosophy or morals, only the actual story does.

We're arguing for the same point just from different sides now. I've never said Samurai can't be a DPS, and have only argued that it makes sense and has merit as a tank. That it should not be confined to a DPS. The DPS role doesn't need to be argued for when it comes to designing new jobs as everything can be a DPS. It's the simplest role from a design standpoint and only needs one thing: Does it do Damage? Yes. That's it, that's all it takes to really decide on a DPS job. It's the tanks and healer jobs that need more consideration into how they are made etc. Especially in this game that has pretty narrow categories of Tanks and Healers.

And FFXI SAM is a terrible example to bring into this as it was designed as a Tank but due to poor foresight and design players didn't play it as such and the devs just went with it.

The thing is, this argument about SAM's role comes up all the time because when you look at things from a realistic viewpoint, many favorite and iconic Final Fantasy jobs can be DPS, but only a few fit the bill for Tanking roles. Samurai is one that easily fits into this game as a tank, with a common damage type shared with the other tanks, a history of wearing heavy armor like the other tanks, and a job fantasy that goes perfectly in line with being a tank. To take something that so easily fits into FFXIV's tanking mold and make it a DPS is a bit of a disservice to be quite honest. Other options for tanking jobs are either obscure, unpopular, or have little actual identity that is any way different then existing tanks. Then there's options that require potentially problematic situations when it comes to itemization/loot that would require extra development time to sort out.

When it comes to development often times the path of least resistance is the one taken. Samurai tank is the most logical one that takes this path of least resistance barring some new job they think up to be unique to FFXIV (but even that has issues of being potentially not as popular of a job or concept to help intice players to try tanking, which needs to be considered.)

The XI SAM being a tank thing is actually not true, or at least not confirmed as far as I know. The devs did a lot of questionable things with the jobs there. I mean, THF had Perfect Dodge, which sounds like a GREAT tank 2hr... but THF clearly weren't designed for that at the beginning. The only one that was confirmed unintended was NIN being a tank, but originally released intending to be DPS. SAM in that game was following a lot of the conventions that the FF series gave it from before, as a heavy armor using powerhouse with attacks that debuff (though XI's version didn't really have much of that).

Given that there is a working example, intended or not, the pro-DPS crowd for it actually stronger ground to work on when it comes to game functionality. It really just comes down to the XIV devs balancing out what role is needed more, in light of current and future job releases. I stand corrected on the non-DPS view of it being impossible to fathom I assumed you had though.

A single attack that you do how often? Sneak Attack doesn't require you stand in front of your opponent full time, like XI's trait.

It was a useless trait in XI, outside of solo... so what's your point? No one uses it, just like tanks/dps/healers don't use a lot of skills/spells frequently here, as you so pointed out.

Edit: had to step away from the computer for a while, but I looked up the specific trait you were referring to (I rarely played SAM). Hoo boy... you never played XI did you? In that game, did you know that you had to build TP to do your main attacks and your TP building auto attacks weren't your primary source of damage? In other words, that function, for anyone who has played it would know, is designed to be used for Weapon Skills. What are those? They're abilities that you use once you've built up enough TP. So that means the SAM would, if they deemed it worth the risk, move to the front of the mob to do their WS and then run back to the side or behind the mob (though some HNMs made everyone stand in front... so yay full-time trait use). It was a different game from what you're thinking, given you used that as an example for the tank idea, and really doesn't apply. I actually feel stupid for not recalling that myself now too. Would have just ended that point right off the bat. Actual understanding isn't required here, I guess.