Roles for Samurai, Red Mage, Dancer

[MomomiMomi]

Yeah, we're done here. Not even gonna humor this one.

Are you saying then that attacking people in the back is not dishonorable?

[Welsper59]

Are you saying then that attacking people in the back is not dishonorable?

All right, a question with some bite. Backstabs are generally not an honorable means to attack. But we are talking about combat in an RPG, you know where mechanics, gameplay fun, that sort of thing exists. Had this been in part of the storyline itself, like how NINs talked about honor (I think... it's been a while), the combat mechanics do not define the roles "honor". Such non-combat related things in a game do not matter to the philosophy or morals, only the actual story does.

We're arguing for the same point just from different sides now. I've never said Samurai can't be a DPS, and have only argued that it makes sense and has merit as a tank. That it should not be confined to a DPS. The DPS role doesn't need to be argued for when it comes to designing new jobs as everything can be a DPS. It's the simplest role from a design standpoint and only needs one thing: Does it do Damage? Yes. That's it, that's all it takes to really decide on a DPS job. It's the tanks and healer jobs that need more consideration into how they are made etc. Especially in this game that has pretty narrow categories of Tanks and Healers.

And FFXI SAM is a terrible example to bring into this as it was designed as a Tank but due to poor foresight and design players didn't play it as such and the devs just went with it.

The thing is, this argument about SAM's role comes up all the time because when you look at things from a realistic viewpoint, many favorite and iconic Final Fantasy jobs can be DPS, but only a few fit the bill for Tanking roles. Samurai is one that easily fits into this game as a tank, with a common damage type shared with the other tanks, a history of wearing heavy armor like the other tanks, and a job fantasy that goes perfectly in line with being a tank. To take something that so easily fits into FFXIV's tanking mold and make it a DPS is a bit of a disservice to be quite honest. Other options for tanking jobs are either obscure, unpopular, or have little actual identity that is any way different then existing tanks. Then there's options that require potentially problematic situations when it comes to itemization/loot that would require extra development time to sort out.

When it comes to development often times the path of least resistance is the one taken. Samurai tank is the most logical one that takes this path of least resistance barring some new job they think up to be unique to FFXIV (but even that has issues of being potentially not as popular of a job or concept to help intice players to try tanking, which needs to be considered.)

The XI SAM being a tank thing is actually not true, or at least not confirmed as far as I know. The devs did a lot of questionable things with the jobs there. I mean, THF had Perfect Dodge, which sounds like a GREAT tank 2hr... but THF clearly weren't designed for that at the beginning. The only one that was confirmed unintended was NIN being a tank, but originally released intending to be DPS. SAM in that game was following a lot of the conventions that the FF series gave it from before, as a heavy armor using powerhouse with attacks that debuff (though XI's version didn't really have much of that).

Given that there is a working example, intended or not, the pro-DPS crowd for it actually stronger ground to work on when it comes to game functionality. It really just comes down to the XIV devs balancing out what role is needed more, in light of current and future job releases. I stand corrected on the non-DPS view of it being impossible to fathom I assumed you had though.

A single attack that you do how often? Sneak Attack doesn't require you stand in front of your opponent full time, like XI's trait.

It was a useless trait in XI, outside of solo... so what's your point? No one uses it, just like tanks/dps/healers don't use a lot of skills/spells frequently here, as you so pointed out.

Edit: had to step away from the computer for a while, but I looked up the specific trait you were referring to (I rarely played SAM). Hoo boy... you never played XI did you? In that game, did you know that you had to build TP to do your main attacks and your TP building auto attacks weren't your primary source of damage? In other words, that function, for anyone who has played it would know, is designed to be used for Weapon Skills. What are those? They're abilities that you use once you've built up enough TP. So that means the SAM would, if they deemed it worth the risk, move to the front of the mob to do their WS and then run back to the side or behind the mob (though some HNMs made everyone stand in front... so yay full-time trait use). It was a different game from what you're thinking, given you used that as an example for the tank idea, and really doesn't apply. I actually feel stupid for not recalling that myself now too. Would have just ended that point right off the bat. Actual understanding isn't required here, I guess.

[Shippuu]

The XI SAM being a tank thing is actually not true, or at least not confirmed as far as I know. The devs did a lot of questionable things with the jobs there. I mean, THF had Perfect Dodge, which sounds like a GREAT tank 2hr... but THF clearly weren't designed for that at the beginning. The only one that was confirmed unintended was NIN being a tank, but originally released intending to be DPS. SAM in that game was following a lot of the conventions that the FF series gave it from before, as a heavy armor using powerhouse with attacks that debuff (though XI's version didn't really have much of that).

The evidence is all there that SAM was meant to be a tank, likely an offense styled tank not unlike our Warriors in FFXIV. They could wear heavy armor, had abilities that allowed them to avoid damage etc. But the big indicators are the stats upon the job's Artifact Armor. Not only does it boost stats such as evasion and parry (It was thought SAM was meant to be a parry tank but parry skill ups were difficult to grind out making it very hard to rely on said parrying.) but the body piece had a chance to boost your TP when you were hit (DPS don't get hit etc.) And the biggest one of all is that their AF also had +enmity on it. A trait only shared with 2 other job's AF, Paladin and Warrior. No DPS job has +enmity on their job armor, nor any reason to have +enmity, especially on a job that has no enmity reducing abilities like DRG had etc. These things combined easily show the job was likely intended as a tank, if not some kind of pseudo-tank.

And SAM throughout Final Fantasy isn't particularly known to be a powerhouse stat-wise. They boast strong physical stats usually, yes, but most of their strength comes from their abilities to outright instantly kill an enemy which would never translate into an MMO. In some games SAM even had weaker attack stats than even the Knight class.

But yeah, ultimately SE will decide what role it has and what kind of Samurai it will be when it eventually arrives in the game (Pretty much just a matter of when, not if lol). I will play it regardless of it's role.

[MomomiMomi]

All right, a question with some bite. Backstabs are generally not an honorable means to attack. But we are talking about combat in an RPG, you know where mechanics, gameplay fun, that sort of thing exists. Had this been in part of the storyline itself, like how NINs talked about honor (I think... it's been a while), the combat mechanics do not define the roles "honor". Such non-combat related things in a game do not matter to the philosophy or morals, only the actual story does.

First of all, the Ninja honor system is completely different. It's based on success/failure of the task at hand.

And I absolutely disagree that job image does not tie in to combat mechanics. You can see this in almost every job. Their roles, positions, abilities. These are all based on the image of the job. In this case, fighting honorably is part of that image. It's even more prominent in other games. So to say that it doesn't have an impact because this is a game is overlooking a lot of RPG history.

Why do you suppose they gave Samurai in XI a trait that boosts its attack when fighting face to face to an enemy? Here's my take on it: Job Image. Also, the trait was picked and used by pretty much every SAM, at least when it was current.

The XI SAM being a tank thing is actually not true, or at least not confirmed as far as I know. The devs did a lot of questionable things with the jobs there. I mean, THF had Perfect Dodge, which sounds like a GREAT tank 2hr... but THF clearly weren't designed for that at the beginning. The only one that was confirmed unintended was NIN being a tank, but originally released intending to be DPS. SAM in that game was following a lot of the conventions that the FF series gave it from before, as a heavy armor using powerhouse with attacks that debuff (though XI's version didn't really have much of that).

It was just as much, or even better, of a tank than WAR was. Guess what? When the game released, WAR was the only job that even came close to qualifying as a tank. For a very long time, there was no other true tank in the game other than Paladin, and that didn't even come until later. But there were definitely other jobs that were intended to do some tanking. SAM was one of those. WAR was another.

[Welsper59]

The evidence is all there that SAM was meant to be a tank, likely an offense styled tank not unlike our Warriors in FFXIV. They could wear heavy armor, had abilities that allowed them to avoid damage etc. But the big indicators are the stats upon the job's Artifact Armor. Not only does it boost stats such as evasion and parry (It was thought SAM was meant to be a parry tank but parry skill ups were difficult to grind out making it very hard to rely on said parrying.) but the body piece had a chance to boost your TP when you were hit (DPS don't get hit etc.) And the biggest one of all is that their AF also had +enmity on it. A trait only shared with 2 other job's AF, Paladin and Warrior. No DPS job has +enmity on their job armor, nor any reason to have +enmity, especially on a job that has no enmity reducing abilities like DRG had etc. These things combined easily show the job was likely intended as a tank, if not some kind of pseudo-tank.

And SAM throughout Final Fantasy isn't particularly known to be a powerhouse stat-wise. They boast strong physical stats usually, yes, but most of their strength comes from their abilities to outright instantly kill an enemy which would never translate into an MMO. In some games SAM even had weaker attack stats than even the Knight class.

But yeah, ultimately SE will decide what role it has and what kind of Samurai it will be when it eventually arrives in the game (Pretty much just a matter of when, not if lol). I will play it regardless of it's role.

Stats don't mean much to indicate a role in that game, and you're wrong about DPS not having +enmity, as well as jobs not having enmity reducing abilities. THF is a primary example of gear that has enmity (for Trick Attack, probably). Dragoon have a jump that temporarily wipes nearly all threat. Enmity transfer/reduction abilities were very seldom in general, initially only given through THF abilities (main/sub) and the specific DRG Jump... so arguing reduction on that end is kinda irrelevant.

And your mentioning of them only having strong abilities to dish out major damage in other games (nothing to do with defensively taking them besides heavy armor)... doesn't that sound a lot more fitting to be DPS? I mean we're going in circles here. All I'm saying is that nearly every point that you folks have about it being a tank, is ALSO fit for it being a DPS. That's all.

First of all, the Ninja honor system is completely different. It's based on success/failure of the task at hand.

And I absolutely disagree that job image does not tie in to combat mechanics. You can see this in almost every job. Their roles, positions, abilities. These are all based on the image of the job. In this case, fighting honorably is part of that image. It's even more prominent in other games. So to say that it doesn't have an impact because this is a game is overlooking a lot of RPG history.

It was just as much, or even better, of a tank than WAR was. Guess what? When the game released, WAR was the only job that even came close to qualifying as a tank. For a very long time, there was no other true tank in the game other than Paladin, and that didn't even come until later. But there were definitely other jobs that were intended to do some tanking. SAM was one of those. WAR was another.

Uhmmm.... SAM wasn't released until Zilart expansion. PLD was long since a thing. Likewise, NIN came with SAM and some others, though the assumption that SAM was a tank was fitting, much the same way that people felt DRK, as it was only during the early levels. DRK was also a vanilla release Advanced job btw, just to note. It worked... until you got to the mid levels. MNK worked too, even at later levels for some content. Hell, BLM and SMN were often acting as tanks for specific parties.

As for this:

Why do you suppose they gave Samurai in XI a trait that boosts its attack when fighting face to face to an enemy? Here's my take on it: Job Image. Also, the trait was picked and used by pretty much every SAM, at least when it was current.

I replied with a late edit earlier:

Edit: had to step away from the computer for a while, but I looked up the specific trait you were referring to (I rarely played SAM). Hoo boy... you never played XI did you? In that game, did you know that you had to build TP to do your main attacks and your TP building auto attacks weren't your primary source of damage? In other words, that function, for anyone who has played it would know, is designed to be used for Weapon Skills. What are those? They're abilities that you use once you've built up enough TP. So that means the SAM would, if they deemed it worth the risk, move to the front of the mob to do their WS and then run back to the side or behind the mob (though some HNMs made everyone stand in front... so yay full-time trait use). It was a different game from what you're thinking, given you used that as an example for the tank idea, and really doesn't apply. I actually feel stupid for not recalling that myself now too. Would have just ended that point right off the bat. Actual understanding isn't required here, I guess.

Don't use topics that you think support you when it really doesn't. Anyone that played the game long enough would know that a lot of the mechanics in that game, be it involving traits/abilities/spells, often involved a risk vs reward factor.

[Shippuu]

Stats don't mean much to indicate a role in that game, and you're wrong about DPS not having +enmity, as well as jobs not having enmity reducing abilities. THF is a primary example of gear that has enmity (for Trick Attack, probably). Dragoon have a jump that temporarily wipes nearly all threat. Enmity transfer/reduction abilities were very seldom in general, initially only given through THF abilities (main/sub) and the specific DRG Jump... so arguing reduction on that end is kinda irrelevant.

Stats absolutely mattered for that kind of thing in that game. The Thief Artifact armor (And AF+1) has zero +enmity on it so my point still stands, the sets that gave Thief +enmity came WAY later. I specifically said it didn't make sense for SAM to have +enmity as a DPS job because they have no mechanics/abilities to shed or manipulate that like DRG does: " nor any reason to have +enmity, especially on a job that has no enmity reducing abilities like DRG had etc." I specifically mentioned DRG because of High Jump. I mained DRG in FFXI for near 2 years, I'm aware of it's abilities. It made sense to later add +enmity to Thief because the core moves of that job manipulated enmity to place it onto the tank. Samurai has no such skills.

And your mentioning of them only having strong abilities to dish out major damage in other games (nothing to do with defensively taking them besides heavy armor)... doesn't that sound a lot more fitting to be DPS? I mean we're going in circles here. All I'm saying is that nearly every point that you folks have about it being a tank, is ALSO fit for it being a DPS. That's all.

Past FF games don't operate on a trinity system. There is technically no "tanks" in traditional JRPG Final Fantasy titles so the point is moot. You're arguments are pointless at this point because as I mentioned before, literally everything can be a DPS. You don't need to argue for it because of course it can be a DPS. The DPS role requires no extra stipulations aside from an ability to deal damage, that's it. So it's not a matter of "well it can be a dps too just as easily." because that's not the point, as anything can be a DPS, it's the default, the neutral, the base form.

The point is that is has many flags that make it a prime contendor as a Tank. I don't know how else to really break it down. Only that you're arguing for nothing because DPS is the default job archetype when it comes to these things.

[Welsper59]

I played FFXI for 10 years. I do know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about that game. Did you play it? I see you didn't even know what trait I was talking about.

Then why wouldn't you know how the combat system functioned and why such a trait like that would exist, even for a DPS? I didn't know about it immediately because, as I answered right off the bat, I barely played SAM. That's like me asking you why you didn't know about Sneak Attack on NIN having a front position buffed effect. You still failed to justify anything on that trait proving "tank". Move on, just as I am.

Stats absolutely mattered for that kind of thing in that game. The Thief Artifact armor (And AF+1) has zero +enmity on it so my point still stands, the sets that gave Thief +enmity came WAY later. I specifically said it didn't make sense for SAM to have +enmity as a DPS job because they have no mechanics/abilities to shed or manipulate that like DRG does: " nor any reason to have +enmity, especially on a job that has no enmity reducing abilities like DRG had etc." I specifically mentioned DRG because of High Jump. I mained DRG in FFXI for near 2 years, I'm aware of it's abilities. It made sense to later add +enmity to Thief because the core moves of that job manipulated enmity to place it onto the tank. Samurai has no such skills.


Past FF games don't operate on a trinity system. There is technically no "tanks" in traditional JRPG Final Fantasy titles so the point is moot. You're arguments are pointless at this point because as I mentioned before, literally everything can be a DPS. You don't need to argue for it because of course it can be a DPS. The DPS role requires no extra stipulations aside from an ability to deal damage, that's it. So it's not a matter of "well it can be a dps too just as easily." because that's not the point, as anything can be a DPS, it's the default, the neutral, the base form.

The point is that is has many flags that make it a prime contendor as a Tank. I don't know how else to really break it down. Only that you're arguing for nothing because DPS is the default job archetype when it comes to these things.

My mistake on the DRG thing. Keep in mind though that, as I said, enmity reduction wasn't a common thing at all. DRG was pretty much the only one that had that. Also note that, as I said in an earlier post, SAM was not introduced until Zilart. The game had changed things by then. Zilart also introduced things like Dynamis, which is where the THF AF2 came from with the Enmity. Referencing original THF AF and comparing to gear that came out later for SAM when it released is... really reaching.

Realize that SAM was very powerful for good stretches of that game. They'd often steal agg from tanks if they went wild even without enmity+ gear. Subbing THF was a common practice outside of raid setups. Enmity in that game is not a strong argument for much, since they also used it as a punishment. It would explain why caster gear drops also had +enmity back then. It's the same risk vs reward system that explains why some gear have massive damage boosts, but huge hits to accuracy/def/stats. Hence, why I said that stats don't dictate much there to determine someones role. Some do, like DEF, but enmity is not exclusive to it. I mean crap man, THF had +shield and +parry on their AF pieces. Are they tanks!?

I'm arguing on the matter because your points have faults that work against you, but you don't seem to realize it. You can't pick and choose your arguments by ignoring factors that work against you. This is why I keep saying that it'll work for both sides equally, and I continuously state why that's the fact on the matter. Maybe I am talking to a wall on the matter, which isn't unusual when it comes to reasoning and inner workings.

[MomomiMomi]

Then why wouldn't you know how the combat system functioned and why such a trait like that would exist, even for a DPS? I didn't know about it immediately because, as I answered right off the bat, I barely played SAM. That's like me asking you why you didn't know about Sneak Attack on NIN having a front position buffed effect. You still failed to justify anything on that trait proving "tank". Move on, just as I am.

That would be a pretty silly question on your part, since I do know that sneak attack has a front position effect. Not only because, hey, I play with other ninjas, but I have a level 50 NIN myself.

And trying to say that it was only for WS is foolish, since auto-attacks made up about 40% of SAM's dps. It also doesn't explain why they made it work in the front. Why not the back?