Roles for Samurai, Red Mage, Dancer

[MomomiMomi]

That's living out your specific version of the job image. Are you implying that Samurai in FFXI is not "Samurai" because it's a DPS, and thus does not fit your idea of what Samurai is? If people want it to be a DPS, it can and does fit the bill just as much as it does for them to be tank. The reality of the image of the job does not gravitate exclusively to one role and not the other. Why you folks are using the paragon ideal as some form of defense to a job being a tank or not is beyond me, given the fact that, as you put it, no class or job strays from that ideal... so that does include both DPS and healers too. It's a point that does literally nothing to bolster the idea for SAM to be a tank. Even the initiative to protect is a rather weak one. Nearly all of the classes/jobs in this game give the player the story to protect something or to want to fight for something.

He said nothing about dps or tank. He said that Samurai will uphold Bushido, arguing against you saying ronin is a good example of SAM not being a tank and instead fighting dishonorably. Because if we get Samurai, it most likely isn't going to be dishonorable. That goes against the core of fantasy Samurai.

[Welsper59]

He said nothing about dps or tank. He said that Samurai will uphold Bushido, arguing against you saying ronin is a good example of SAM not being a tank and instead fighting dishonorably. Because if we get Samurai, it most likely isn't going to be dishonorable. That goes against the core of fantasy Samurai.

Why are ronin by default dishonorable? I didn't even say that. I said a lot of them were, just as Samurai ranks were, but by a default, ronins were not. Your argument, and apparently the person I quoted, indirectly implies that DPS are dishonorable. The reason I say that is because of the fact you single out the tank role as the exclusive role for it to possibly exist in the game. If I'm wrong on that, and that you're not saying DPS are dishonorable (in other words, they are capable of being honorable), then how is this at all a point to argue for the tank role? You would literally be picking out a quality all roles share. Even as far as history goes, I've pointed out reasons why they can fit DPS equally as well as tank... since it's for the same reasons.

Edit: For further clarification, my mention of the ronin and the general corruption of the Samurai ranks in history were to point out to the guy that Samurai were not some saintly order infallible to the misdeeds of normal human beings, as was being implied. Here's what he said:

If there is one thing i have leares through all of these SAM DPS/ Tank threads it's this: The vocal majority would rather bastardize the concept of a real world warrior culture that for generations held up fundamental ideals of honor, sacrifice, and duty to others before and at the cost of their own lives (Bushido being not unlike a Knights Chivalry), for the sake of less role responsibility in a fantasy based mmo ...

The saddest part? In wanting to play the fantasy of a Samurai, they want to cut out a Samurais role in not only real world history but established fantasy aswell. The reason we don't have a sword DPS is simple, the sword iconography/ symbology denotes a hero. By all means prove me wrong, pictures of swords through the back are welcome, particularly Samurai attacking the enemy From behind.

Bolded the important part of why I brought up the reality about the samurai. They were not all as honorable as Hollywood likes to make it seem, as he even admitted.

[MomomiMomi]

Why are ronin by default dishonorable? I didn't even say that. I said a lot of them were, just as Samurai ranks were, but by a default, ronins were not. Your argument, and apparently the person I quoted, indirectly implies that DPS are dishonorable. The reason I say that is because of the fact you single out the tank role as the exclusive role for it to possibly exist in the game. If I'm wrong on that, and that you're not saying DPS are dishonorable (in other words, they are capable of being honorable), then how is this at all a point to argue for the tank role? You would literally be picking out a quality all roles share. Even as far as history goes, I've pointed out reasons why they can fit DPS equally as well as tank... since it's for the same reasons.

You tell me, you're the one who brought them up:

Well if you really want to go into the history aspect, many of them were VERY corrupt, particularly the ronin, towards civilians. Just like today, it wasn't exactly uncommon for civilians to hate the "police" for their treachery.

Which is pretty pointless to bring up because the fantasy samurai is based on the idealized Samurai.

[Welsper59]

You tell me, you're the one who brought them up.

Check the edit I made above to show you why it came up.

[MomomiMomi]

Check the edit I made above to show you why it came up.

Yeah I saw your edit. I edited mine as well. It was pointless to bring it up. If we get Samurai, it's not going to be that. So why bring up that there were some that didn't live up to the idealized version?

[Shippuu]

That's not a consistent tank trait though is it? Tanks always having a skill that is the strongest damage move, that is. Once again, I'm not saying they can't be tanks, I'm just arguing that one side does not overrule the other. By your view, you're literally implying that the SAM job from FFXI is not "Samurai", just because it is a DD/DPS, regardless of story tied to it, and not a tank. It can, and does, work both ways. Just as much as they can fit the tank role, so too can they fit the DPS. Blinding yourself to such thoughts is contrary to the very idea of Samurai lol.

We're arguing for the same point just from different sides now. I've never said Samurai can't be a DPS, and have only argued that it makes sense and has merit as a tank. That it should not be confined to a DPS (Not that it cannot be a DPS). The DPS role doesn't need to be argued for when it comes to designing new jobs as everything can be a DPS. It's the simplest role from a design standpoint and only needs one thing: Does it do Damage? Yes. That's it, that's all it takes to really decide on a DPS job. It's the tanks and healer jobs that need more consideration into how they are made etc. Especially in this game that has pretty narrow categories of Tanks and Healers.

And FFXI SAM is a terrible example to bring into this as it was designed as a Tank but due to poor foresight and design players didn't play it as such and the devs just went with it.

The thing is, this argument about SAM's role comes up all the time because when you look at things from a realistic viewpoint, many favorite and iconic Final Fantasy jobs can be DPS, but only a few fit the bill for Tanking roles. Samurai is one that easily fits into this game as a tank, with a common damage type shared with the other tanks, a history of wearing heavy armor like the other tanks, and a job fantasy that goes perfectly in line with being a tank. To take something that so easily fits into FFXIV's tanking mold and make it a DPS is a bit of a disservice to be quite honest. Other options for tanking jobs are either obscure, unpopular, or have little actual identity that is any way different then existing tanks. Then there's options that require potentially problematic situations when it comes to itemization/loot that would require extra development time to sort out.

When it comes to development often times the path of least resistance is the one taken. Samurai tank is the most logical one that takes this path of least resistance barring some new job they think up to be unique to FFXIV (but even that has issues of being potentially not as popular of a job or concept to help intice players to try tanking, which needs to be considered.)

[Welsper59]

Which is pretty pointless to bring up because the fantasy samurai is based on the idealized Samurai.

You really don't have much of a strong argument towards any of this, do you? I'll try to be very brief about it. Ronin are wanderers. They can be honorable or dishonorable, where in the case of fantasy, depends on how the creators want them to be. I brought up a passing thought that given naming conventions with XIV dev team, we might possibly see "Ronin" as our version of Samurai. Likely? Probably not, but possible because it is still a "samurai". If one were to think a little, they'd come to the conclusion that nothing about their RL history nor fantasy based history dictates they have to be a tank or DPS. The end. That was the end of that conversation on ronin.

[MomomiMomi]

You really don't have much of a strong argument towards any of this, do you? I'll try to be very brief about it. Ronin are wanderers. They can be honorable or dishonorable, where in the case of fantasy, depends on how the creators want them to be. I brought up a passing thought that given naming conventions with XIV dev team, we might possibly see "Ronin" as our version of Samurai. Likely? Probably not, but possible because it is still a "samurai". Nothing about their RL history nor fantasy based history dictates they have to be a tank or DPS. The end. That was the end of that conversation on ronin.

If we get Ronin, it won't be Samurai.

The thing you were replying to was about Samurai stabbing people in the back. This is dishonorable. This is what DPS do in our game.

And you brought up FFXI's Samurai before. They had a trait that gave them an attack boost when facing the enemy face to face. Good luck getting that to work in this game.

[Welsper59]

If we get Ronin, it won't be Samurai.

The thing you were replying to was about Samurai stabbing people in the back. This is dishonorable. This is what DPS do in our game.

Yeah, we're done here. Not even gonna humor this one. Although I will correct you on your backstab mention from the guy because actual reading is involved. He said specifically sword wielders are depicted as icons to depict a hero, not specifically samurai. As a followup reply from someone else, there's quite a lot of sword users that are very dishonorable, both in fantasy and in real history.

The reason we don't have a sword DPS is simple, the sword iconography/ symbology denotes a hero. By all means prove me wrong, pictures of swords through the back are welcome, particularly Samurai attacking the enemy From behind.

And you brought up FFXI's Samurai before. They had a trait that gave them an attack boost when facing the enemy face to face. Good luck getting that to work in this game.

Couldn't help myself because you make it too easy lol. Sneak Attack exists here with NIN. Seriously, let's just call it here lol.

[MomomiMomi]

Yeah, we're done here. Not even gonna humor this one.

Are you saying then that attacking people in the back is not dishonorable?