Roles for Samurai, Red Mage, Dancer

[Xlantaa]

I don't undetand why people becomes agressive when someone suggest Samurai as tank, as if was some thing of heresy ask for it. Think on it. Samurai can be both Tank or DPS perfectly of course, but if comes both Red Mage and Samurai together in the same expasion (if that happens of course), which really will be each? And please, not with the "mage tank is new!" or "we have too much sword tanks" (btw, red mage uses sword/rapiers) and that. Please think on how the game works. Picking the current job config, what you think fit better this classes with the current job configuration?



If Red Mage or Samurai are a Tank, they will look like this image. Samurai probably won't look neither good with that, but, think on it. Between Red mage or Samurai, which one fit that gear? If you ask me, that thing fits more a Samurai than a Red Mage. A lot of people complain about the indetity of the jobs in this game, but you will allow this to red mage only in order to obtain a Samurai DPS?

Of course, still, like I said, can be both DPS, but then they won't come in the same expasion, which is not the theme of this thread (unless they put Red Mage as healer, Sam as DPS, which, can be, possible too).

I will add. This game will never put a tank in robes. Too much thigns must me changed for that.

[ShinMetsu]

In my opinion FFXIV has huge identity issues anyway when it comes to gear, it feels like every job is butchered in its appearance, it's just all kinds of messed up imo.

Pretty much none of the MNK or NIN gear has an eastern touch to it, except for AF. Most of the gear looks the same for DRG too, just very slight variances between DRG and MNK, slight variances between NIN BRD and MCH.
And Casters and Healers look alike too except for color differences.
OH AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON NIN WEAPONS. just a bunch of freaking daggers and miniature swords....

This is something FFXI did right imo, most classes had a unique look to them.


Also... xP

[LineageRazor]

For the record, I'm of the opinion that SAM would serve VERY well as either a tank or a DPS. I'm leaning toward DPS, ONLY because we already have two sword-wielding Tanks, and I'd like to see a sword-wielding DPS. That is really my only reason.

But my hackles as a FFXI vet were raised at the following, and I felt compelled to speak up.

It was a useless trait in XI, outside of solo... so what's your point? No one uses it, just like tanks/dps/healers don't use a lot of skills/spells frequently here, as you so pointed out.

Edit: had to step away from the computer for a while, but I looked up the specific trait you were referring to (I rarely played SAM). Hoo boy... you never played XI did you? In that game, did you know that you had to build TP to do your main attacks and your TP building auto attacks weren't your primary source of damage? In other words, that function, for anyone who has played it would know, is designed to be used for Weapon Skills. What are those? They're abilities that you use once you've built up enough TP. So that means the SAM would, if they deemed it worth the risk, move to the front of the mob to do their WS and then run back to the side or behind the mob (though some HNMs made everyone stand in front... so yay full-time trait use). It was a different game from what you're thinking, given you used that as an example for the tank idea, and really doesn't apply. I actually feel stupid for not recalling that myself now too. Would have just ended that point right off the bat. Actual understanding isn't required here, I guess.

Overwhelm wasn't at all a useless trait. It was, in fact THE BEST optional trait a SAM could select, and until SE nerfed it so that points beyond the third produced diminishing returns, an SAM without 5/5 Overwhelm was either a bad SAM, or one that hadn't built up enough limit points yet. (And after that nerf, any SAM without 3/5 Overwhelm was bad. :P)

In FFXI, frontals and conal attacks weren't nearly as much a problem as they are in this game. Outside of a VERY few exceptions, there were no "cleaves" intended to kill anyone in front of the mob who wasn't a tank. Frontals and conals did ordinary damage, or inflict status. Sure, players frowned on players who stood in front of mobs for no good reason - but SAMs were an exception because they DID have a good reason. SAMs were the DPS that stood in front of the mob. It was where they performed the best. This was known and accepted - healers did not complain about the modest amount of extra damage or status they needed to clean up, because the SAMs were putting out enough hurt to make it more than worthwhile.

That model obviously would not work in this game, unless they had some special trait specifically designed to severely mitigate cleave damage - or unless they were a tank. Most likely, though, if SAMs are a DPS in this game, they will be sticking to the flanks and rear, just like other DPS. But in Final Fantasy XI, it was very much a thing for SAMs to stand alongside the tanks. (At least until the meta changed, and no one could stand anywhere near the mob EXCEPT a tank, all melee was worthless, and SAMs fired bows from a distance instead - but that is another story entirely.)

[shao32]

anyway... dps will mostly bring new gameplay experience

you know, im really tired ppl complaing about DRK saying is a copy of paladin and that stuff, but the reality is DRK bring a new and fresh gameplay that many players love (i fall in love on DRK the first day), i dont care if is red mage, samurai, templar, chocobo knight i dont care what job come to tank role(plus i still prefer samurai ;p), they can release it with a new fresh gameplay like DPS, any new tank can offer the same like any new DPS in this game, gameplay.

the question is directly to you, why tanks can't have new gameplays to play with our agro and defensives? why are the DPS the only can have new jobs with new gampleays to do the same?

variety of gameplays on the tank job can bring new players to play the role, and thats alwais good.

[Deceptus]

Samurai tank
Red mage: Heals
Dancer - Dex based melee that can share gear with ninja. We need a class to equalize that out. Ninja's are currently the only class that uses that system. We have 2 ranged casters, 2 strength melee, 2 ranged Dex, 3 tanks and 3 heals.

[Jandor]

Dancer: TP based healer with combos and MP based 'astral dancers' that repeat memorized combos for burst heals and such.

Dance, dance, heal, call in astral backup dancer, dps dance off combo, spin for added flourish, assume direct control of projection that's outside red circle, /pose.

[Lisotte]

Thing that would make sense to me would be SAM as a tank, RDM as a DD, and DNC as a healer. However I think this would require DNC to heal based on the damage they're doing melee, or else the job would have to change a lot if they were going to be dancing on the backline. Considering that, the easier thing that makes about the same amount of sense is SAM as a tank, DNC as a DD, and RDM as a healer.

[Maero]

With DK as tank i would think Sam will be dps. But they can go any route they want i guess
The 3 listed from you OP sounds great to me though even if i could care less for Samurai. I want dancer the most

[ADVSS]

watch us get geomancer, blue mage, and Tamer instead lol

[Welsper59]

For the record, I'm of the opinion that SAM would serve VERY well as either a tank or a DPS. I'm leaning toward DPS, ONLY because we already have two sword-wielding Tanks, and I'd like to see a sword-wielding DPS. That is really my only reason.

But my hackles as a FFXI vet were raised at the following, and I felt compelled to speak up.



Overwhelm wasn't at all a useless trait. It was, in fact THE BEST optional trait a SAM could select, and until SE nerfed it so that points beyond the third produced diminishing returns, an SAM without 5/5 Overwhelm was either a bad SAM, or one that hadn't built up enough limit points yet. (And after that nerf, any SAM without 3/5 Overwhelm was bad. :P)

In FFXI, frontals and conal attacks weren't nearly as much a problem as they are in this game. Outside of a VERY few exceptions, there were no "cleaves" intended to kill anyone in front of the mob who wasn't a tank. Frontals and conals did ordinary damage, or inflict status. Sure, players frowned on players who stood in front of mobs for no good reason - but SAMs were an exception because they DID have a good reason. SAMs were the DPS that stood in front of the mob. It was where they performed the best. This was known and accepted - healers did not complain about the modest amount of extra damage or status they needed to clean up, because the SAMs were putting out enough hurt to make it more than worthwhile.

Mhmm. I'm sure during the NA vanilla days (Zilart expansion) of XI, you survived as a SAM standing in front of Kirin doing Heat Breath, Byakko doing Claw Cyclone, any IT mobs frontal cone attacks like Dark Spore near full health, any high level wyverns Radiant Breath, Behemoth/King Behemoths frontal AoEs that 1-shot tanks (or nearly) that didn't kite, Morbol type Bad Breath effects (which I'm sure did give you a lot of opportunity to attack with all those various debuffs), Dynamis-Xarcabard Demon mobs spam of Hecatomb Wave and that multi-hit frontal AoE, and so on. You know, both leveling and endgame scenario types of mobs that were frequently encountered and usually had debuffs like Stuns/Paralyze/Slow/Sleep/Blindness/etc, all of which totally didn't hinder your output compared to the rest of the DPS that didn't die or get hindered.

Mind you, it's not that you were never given the opportunity. I'm sure you did that against mobs that it didn't matter for, like crabs, orcs, or others with not-so-dangerous frontal AoE... but to ignore the fact that many mobs did, in fact, kill you or hinder your damage efforts greatly for standing in front at all times is evidence enough that you were more of a burden than you think. Can't believe this is even a thing to argue about... the trait itself says Weapon Skills. Why the **** are you standing in front to AA as you gain TP when the trait doesn't help you? Again, you guys were just terrible players or something... maybe just pretending you played the game. Who knows...

Overwhelm and Weapon Skills

Those are pretty much the jobs with the least risk. THF's whole design is to mitigate risk for the party. And there was absolutely nothing risky about BRD other than pulling, and that was something completely outside the job's design.

Seriously, there was no job with any risks other than DRK. That's the only job that had any risk built into it. All the other dps jobs have methods of mitigating risk.

I also don't know how a dps job "through and through" has a defensive stance that gives it a 100% dodge, and an "evade and counter."

Yeah, because Trick Attack (TA) on a tank to help threat totally did not involve having to stand behind the tank to do it with the mob thus facing you. Also your argument fails on evasion related matters when you consider THF has Perfect Dodge and extremely high evasion skill (A+ rating if I recall right, whereas the tanks couldn't come close). So... THF was intentionally a tank? DRKs only risk was Soul Eater, which ate away at their HP and increased threat (multiple penalties for using it)... so increased threat = DRK tank too right? I can keep counter arguing with you all day, because nothing you say makes sense to anyone that actually knew what they were doing playing that game.

Side note: Don't speak on BRD. If your tank needed something specific from the rest of the group that was an AoE song, you needed to get in position to cast it so that it wouldn't hit anyone but the tank, which means you're going to likely be in front of the mob (though maybe not too close). Sometimes you wouldn't, sometimes you would. You've obviously never played it (well), so it's not surprising you wouldn't know.