WoW Legion uses FFXI style for relics but FFXIV does not?

[loreleidiangelo]

Here are some facts about the Legion "relic" system so that people get a better idea of what it's about:

-you get a quest at level 100 to go obtain your artifact weapon (Legion's starting level, FYI, so you literally get it right away). The quest to obtain the weapon is actually unique based not only on your class, but what "specialization" you are (so each class can actually get 2-4 artifact weapons, though you can only use the "right" one for your spec). The quests are actually really lore intensive and interesting, so think something like doing your final job quest in FFXIV and being rewarded your relic weapon at the end. The weapon starts at a fairly low ilevel but will grow with you as you level.

-from this point, you power up your weapon using a currency called "artifact power". It's almost like an exp bar for your weapon. Quests and dungeon drops will give out items that give you artifact power, so as long as you play the game you're working towards improving it. It's similar to the 210 step of XIV relic where you have multiple ways of getting UItems but tbh WoW's version is WAY less grindy...to start. Depending in your class, you will also get NPCs to interact with out in the open world that will boost your artifact power in return for doing various things like listening to their dialogue or completing a mini-game for them. They're hidden all over the world, so it's encouraged to get out there and look for them.

-when you get enough artifact power (or AP, as it's abbreviated), you power up your weapon using a customizable interface. You start at a singular node (think the Sphere Grid), and that node will branch out into a variety of connecting nodes that you can put AP into to gain access to those traits and abilities. Some are passives, like "increase healing done by [this spell] by 5%", whereas others are actually brand new abilities that you can add to your hotbar. Unlocking these nodes will then allow you to branch out even further, unlocking even better passives and abilities, though it is possible to "finish" every node on the artifact, and thus finish powering up the weapon.

-due to the class hall system in WoW (which I won't really go into because it's not really relevant), upgrading the artifacts for alt specs - in XIV this would be like other jobs - takes a lot less time and grinding. This allows players to essentially be competitive at raiding on any spec that they choose.

-the weapon will last the entire expansion, yes, but will not be carried over into the next one. So essentially, the vertical treadmill aspect is still there, it's just somewhat...delayed.



If anyone has any questions, I'll be glad to answer them, as I'm currently neck-deep into Legion and loving every second of it. Personally, I think they ripped the artifact idea straight from XIV relics, like XIV so often borrows ideas from WoW, but unlike XIV I feel like they actually improved upon the existing concept/system, rather than made it worse. Artifacts have plenty of lore and story behind them that I axtually care about, as they are pretty much from events that happened during WoW's timeline, unlike the farce with the Zodiac Braves who never show up outside if the relic quest, lol. Upgrading them occurs in a much more staggered, satisfying way than shoving the endless grind right at the front like XIV does - WoW even has like 4 unlockable skins with 4 colors each for the glamour nerds out there. XIV you just try on the finished product and dream until you finally grind enough to unlock everything - weapon, color appearances and all. It's a reward system that shoves all the gratification at the end, which is why I think the Legion system is a lot better.

Opinions may vary though; the point of my post was more to provide some information that people may be interested in reading to see the OP's comparison to FFXI.

[LalafellDown]

How come in FFXIV we are still stuck with a method that Player B can always catch up with Player A on the relic with less time invested for a new chapter to get released again making the effort pretty useless after a while?

Casual market is where the money's at. This game only survival depends on new patches. If FF14 never had a Unsync mode, old dungeons like coil would rarely get beat. there wouldnt be a reason to work hard for old relics.

I personally don't like that they nerf relics I believe they should have relic be hard to get for glamor reasons. Make a kickass looking weapon thats hard to get really makes it worth the grind.

The tea pot weapon for the monk looks really cool. Weapons like that should be one of a kind hardcore grind.



The PLD Nexus is another great example of weapons worth the grind and should never be nerfed.

[whiteblade89]

For me, the achievement and journey is just as important. Having done the relic pre-nerf doesn't take anything away from me when someone does it post-nerf. Just like me 'catching up' on the new raids post-nerf never had as epic a feeling and journey as the ones I managed to do pre-nerf (when I was less casual).

We need more of this mindset in this game ^^

I've noticed recently that a huge demographic of players get salty when things like relics and raids get nerfed. There is a huge decrease in personal pride for personal achievements. If you were able to get a Zeta, congrats. You did what I tried, and failed, to do. You got it when it was relevant, and that is something that no one else can take away from you. You don't have to be salty that John Doe over there got his relic post-nerf and is now on par with you. His achievement will never equal your own, so stop being salty and take pride that you did what others couldn't or wouldn't do.

[Jynx]

XI which was pretty much a group of 36 or more or less were helping 1-3 people with their weapon over the process of a year or more or less.

This isn't really true.

I'll break Dynamis down a little bit more to assist people trying to form an opinion on this.

Dynamis was more or less a player funded raid: the cost was a million gil (A rather large sum of cash for most players at the time) these raids beyond dropping items for relic upgrades also dropped your Tier 2 Artifact Armor that more often than not had game changing ability boosts meaning that this armor was in very, very, very high demand. So people not upgrading relics were also highly motivated to run these dungeons where 1-2 peices of gear were often dropped and not always something people were looking for.

Also included was a "Booking" system for the dungeon as there was not multiple instances of it available only one group could be inside at a time on your server. This lead to Linkshells forming around the content, schedueling raid times with the entire server and to allow them access without paying they would often accept sponsors to fund the runs and in turn for access and rights to loot on the gear that dropped the sponsor would get all the relic upgrade items from the run. It was a interesting form of player cooperation.

In turn this could accelerate the initial upgrade process allot depending on the users funds and therefor ability to play other aspects of the game such as crafting, farming and hunting Notorious monsters. In these aspects the community made it so multiple play-styles could get relics while still requiring real work and dedication to complete.

Sure there were some grindy aspects to them, but these systems were prolific in the game outside of that, want the new weaponskill? Equip this crummy weapon and kill 200 enemies that give exp: Players in turn would use this time to hunt for worthwhile farmable items in turn helping stimulate the markets with high supply (and due to the blind AH system) help keep supply and demand in check and prevent large scale price fixing on certain items.

----

Long story short: The relic quest was a goal for the most hardcore players, it took herculean amounts of effort and player cooperation. This in turn became a large aspect of community building and involved all aspects of the game it was truely a transformative system that really took full advantage of the game and all of it's systems and player involvement.

[Zojha]

Artifacts have plenty of lore and story behind them that I axtually care about, as they are pretty much from events that happened during WoW's timeline[...]

And knowing some of that lore is the reason why I'm just shaking my head at giving the players these weapons. But after Worgen Deathknights, I kinda gave up on WoW and lore entirely.

Personally, I'm not getting why people compare the relic with the artifacts in the first place. Artifacts are an entire progression system on their own, meant to replace the weapon progression they used to have for the duration of the expansion (the model FFXIV still uses and that WoW will likely fall back on after legion). The relic on the other hand is just one option in the classic weapon progression system - like Ashkandi and Kalimdor's Revenge (Or whatever the equivalents are for the later expansions). A fair comparison would be to compare artifacts with the raising of iLvL on weapons and there, I have to agree - artifacts are more interesting. I'd personally rather tie such progression to the character however - I am a glam queen at heart after all and the more weapon models, the better.

[LalafellDown]

We need more of this mindset in this game ^^

I've noticed recently that a huge demographic of players get salty when things like relics and raids get nerfed. There is a huge decrease in personal pride for personal achievements. If you were able to get a Zeta, congrats. You did what I tried, and failed, to do. You got it when it was relevant, and that is something that no one else can take away from you. You don't have to be salty that John Doe over there got his relic post-nerf and is now on par with you. His achievement will never equal your own, so stop being salty and take pride that you did what others couldn't or wouldn't do.

I wasn't fortunate enough to beat T11 - T13 before they released Unsync mode. Beating T9 and T10 after hours of work made the reward and the overall experience worth it. The joy I got when I beat T9 and T10 was awesome, all my hard work paid off I was happy. Wearing the gear from T9 and T10 chest was a status of your dedication it made playing the game more enjoyable I was on top.

What was the reward and feeling I got when I cleared T11-T13 Unsync? It was Meh I beat it. Its the same feeling I get when I clear regular story dungeons "whatever" moving on.

Since heavenward I've learned my lesson in this game "never do your best" because Its worthless. Your hard work, hours of staying up late with your mates, all of your efforts go to waste. The fun was in hard work and the reward in that chest was sweeter. Now, the game its not far from pay to win. More like wait for nerf to win. Money/time spent on Materia for crafting gear went to waste when 3.0 came out. So now I don't bother because it will be handed out like candy in the patches to come.

Why work hard?

[loreleidiangelo]

And knowing some of that lore is the reason why I'm just shaking my head at giving the players these weapons. But after Worgen Deathknights, I kinda gave up on WoW and lore entirely.

Personally, I'm not getting why people compare the relic with the artifacts in the first place. Artifacts are an entire progression system on their own, meant to replace the weapon progression they used to have for the duration of the expansion (the model FFXIV still uses and that WoW will likely fall back on after legion). The relic on the other hand is just one option in the classic weapon progression system - like Ashkandi and Kalimdor's Revenge (Or whatever the equivalents are for the later expansions). A fair comparison would be to compare artifacts with the raising of iLvL on weapons and there, I have to agree - artifacts are more interesting. I'd personally rather tie such progression to the character however - I am a glam queen at heart after all and the more weapon models, the better.

Yeah, I can get behind the notion that EVERY random player wielding "the mystical Nail Bat of Koraud the Strifeshaper" takes a lot of the immersion out of it, but XIV has that issue with it's relic weapons as well (the original ones, at least). I don't think it would hurt to have the relics have some interesting and meaningful lore tacked behind them, though I admit if raids don't have unique story then boring faceroll grinds shouldn't have unique story, either.

As for why they're being compared...well, it's not hard to see that the systems are similar, despite occupying different places in the gearing wheel. They're both unique (at least in terms of the story, not in player inventory stock), powerful weapons that are supposed to grow with the character and become more powerful over time. The thing is, in Wow they actually made it feel that way. In FFXIV it might as well just be something you buy with hunt tokens. Gerolt and the kid with the ponytail are the real masterminds of this evolution; we're just their gophers. The cute little anima sprite does nothing to make me feel like I'm imbuing my weapon with my thoughts and experiences to create a thinking weapon that will be by my side as I crush my enemies, it feels like a Tamagotchi I have to remember to feed.

Well, the relic wasn't really made for people like me so I suppose I don't really care if they ever make it engaging or worth anything or not. I'll just wait for the catch-up patch where I can get a similar ilevel weapon without spending 3 months of my time on boring timesink currency grinds.

[Velhart]

I remember a time when relics meant something in FFXIV. Now its lost most it's value and people just look at it is "ohh wow, he must of grinded a lot"

Actually had to do challenges between grinds like Chimera and Hydra, fought relevant primals. Utilized dungeons in a way that made sense.

Now Yoshi-P openly admits he made this quest for bad players. People who can't be compelled to be slightly good at the game. Well good job, that is exactly what you did.

Relic quest does not need to be like FFXI's, definitely not. But it does need to be interesting and feel better rewarded.

[Felis]

I remember a time when relics meant something in FFXIV. Now its lost most it's value and people just look at it is "ohh wow, he must of grinded a lot"

Actually had to do challenges between grinds like Chimera and Hydra, fought relevant primals. Utilized dungeons in a way that made sense.

Now Yoshi-P openly admits he made this quest for bad players. People who can't be compelled to be slightly good at the game. Well good job, that is exactly what you did.

Relic quest does not need to be like FFXI's, definitely not. But it does need to be interesting and feel better rewarded.

You are talking about the nerfed down relic steps at ARR launch.
The not nefed steps from 1.22 had also challenging steps (like Relic Leves, Dungeon super-speedrun and Ifrit extreme), but also grinding steps (like Hamlet Defense, solo Spiritbound and Beastmen Coins farming)

[Maleficent]

Since heavenward I've learned my lesson in this game "never do your best" because Its worthless. Your hard work, hours of staying up late with your mates, all of your efforts go to waste. The fun was in hard work and the reward in that chest was sweeter. Now, the game its not far from pay to win. More like wait for nerf to win. Money/time spent on Materia for crafting gear went to waste when 3.0 came out. So now I don't bother because it will be handed out like candy in the patches to come.

Why work hard?

I think in a game it's essentially about having fun.

Gear, like many things, has a limited time before it's replaced by something better. New eventually becomes Old. Relevant becomes less so. The cycles are shorter (than WoW?) because the vertical content patches are more frequent.

I can relate that there may be some fatigue if one is competitive and vests heavily in always being in the lead pack. The status symbols last but 3 - 6 months.

Perhaps a way to look at it is: one can't take anything from an MMO other than the memories and sense of achievements (and screenshots. I take many now).

It might be worth divesting some stock on the symbols. Because an MMO should be more about having fun with others and the experiences we share, shouldn't it? (^_^)