Should PLD and WAR get gap-closers at 70?

[SyzzleSpark]

Is it not okay for DRK to have something that the other tanks don't, since the PLD/WAR consensus is that its a "poorly designed, clunky PLD clone with MP n stuff"?

I guess I'm just curious where this sudden interest in getting things that DRK has that the other tanks don't came from, I've frankly never seen threads like this before. People have always been like "yeah DRK has Plunge etc. but eh... PLD/WAR have (insert any of Fell Cleave/oGCD stances/Berserk/Clemency/Equilibrium/Hallowed Ground/a shield/higher dps/higher mitigation/Storm's Path/Storm's Eye here)" DRK mains have asked for things like an oGCD Grit, a slashing debuff, and maybe a slightly meatier self-heal/teensy bit more physical mitigation... can't we just have Plunge?

WAR certainly needs *nothing* to perform better than it does, and PLD, while it certainly needs fixing, its mobility is far from the issue(s).

[Duelle]

But seriously, if you give PLD and WAR gap-closers, they now have 2 anti-knockbacks where DRK has 1. I think asking for a magical version of cover

I'd probably vote for a DRK version of Anti-Magic Zone.

or a slashing debuff/oGCD stances or some such isn't an unfair trade.

The debuffs need to go, as I've repeatedly said in the past. OGCD stances work on WAR because of how the devs implemented Wrath/Abandon. And even then I still argue it's a broken design because switching stances is supposed to have a trade-off.

That said, I don't want any of it. PLD and WAR have things that make them unique and valuable as does DRK, and tools that achieve the same purpose in different ways.

Except that has nothing to do with PLD and WAR getting a gap-closer. Also, if a gap-closer is part of a job's uniqueness, there's a huge problem with the make-up of said job that should probably be looked at.

Anyway, if you want variations on gap-closers, here's two.

PLD:

35 Cover - Run to target party member, absorbing the next two attacks aimed at them. Duration: 8s. Cooldown: 90s.

WAR (technically a MRD ability):

42 Charge - Rush at target, placing you at the top of target's enmity list and delivering an attack with a potency of 50. Cooldown: 35s. Shares a cooldown with other taunt abilities.

Taken from my suggested redesign of PLD, WAR and DRK.

[SyzzleSpark]

Also, if a gap-closer is part of a job's uniqueness, there's a huge problem with the make-up of said job that should probably be looked at.

What? How do you figure that? It simply means it is a tool that it brings to the table that the other jobs don't. And it is a nice albeit not-necessary thing to have. All jobs have these things and they are *part* of their own unique kits that they bring to the table. I dunno where you got "huge problem" from.

Simply stating the fact that "DRK is the only tank with a gap-closer" implies that DRK is unique in that particular respect, now how you extrapolate from there to a perceived problem with the job's design escapes me.

Anyway, if you want variations on gap-closers, here's two.

It seems like we can't agree even with ourselves in the scope of our own posts whether gap closers are valuable or not. Even in your own post you downplay a gap closer as nothing to really be proud of or tout as different/unique, and then proceed to make suggestions for the other tanks to get them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Are gap-closers some sort of inalienable tank-right?

If this is a thing we want to do, then why are we looking at the tank that has to constantly defend the value of its own abilities and not at the tank that everyone unanimously agrees has tools that every tank unequivocally wants? I'm just curious. Its pretty undeniable that people that understand the DRK job have to constantly set the record straight as far as the value and utility of their own tools, and now this thread shows up demanding the other two tank jobs be entitled to one of those tools. I just seems very very strange. Nobody ever said "Don't nerf DRK just bring the other tanks up to DRK's level" Ever. Let us keep our mobility. The other tanks have their own schticks.

[Fannah]

I hope you realize that every subject never has been treated until the day they are. I play only WAR, and I feel often the need to get a dash when I miss a target which goes on my healer because of their regen skill for exemple, or that awful range npc that doesn't want to come to you (and no wall close to hide and force the range npc to come). I didn't even know DRK had a dash cause I play only tank and never did DRK. Of course, I always succeed to deal with because I have to, but it's not at all a gamebreaking mecanic, it's more something cool that can help in some situations (as a lot of skills). It's not like if a tank other than WAR were asking for the skill Vengeance from the WAR reducing 30% of all incoming dmg on him and adding a counter attack to each physical melee attack received which stacks with the lifesteal effects added to their other tanking mecanics. It's just a gap closer, something really cool which can be helpful and add some excitement to the job itself to do some nice tricks with other mecanics or making some actions quicker to gain time. Btw, they could be changed for them to don't be anti-knockback mecanics if it's the problem.

[Tint]

i don't think all tanks need a gap closer.

but i think DRK is the tank who need it the least, because it is the only tank who can attack with an ranged aoe-ability. so he doesn't need to move to the enemys fast.

[ADVSS]

All i know, is every melee has a gap closer, and tanks range for supposedly being responsible to pull mobs before anyone else, is kind of low in comparing ranged and melee with gap closers, i was glad they gave one to drk but i had said itd be nice if all them had one before drk came out, considering your best threat range ability is provoke, which really should not be used to pull at a distance, but it has the best range, comparable to casters...so...yeah. Im on both sides of the fence, but it would be nice


of all the melee jobs the only one without a pulling move also is monk, it would be cool if they got a rock throw or cesti toss too, but i digress, none of the melee DPS NEED a pulling move, but most of them got one(javelin toss, knife throw, fuma shuriken(best ranged weaponskill farthest range besides bard lb) so i dont really see a problem with the other two tanks getting a gap closer, but it would be nice if drk got a skill to prevent knockback in return, or something. Also plunge at 54? move that down to 45.

[SyzzleSpark]

All melee gap closers have the exact same range as Lob/Hawk/Mend - 15y. So really it boils down to you getting there first and not whether you have a gap closer (Plunge's range is also 15y, as is AD. The distance at which most mobs/bosses aggro you also just happens to be a hair under 15y). Tanks have been pulling mobs without gap closers for ages and doing it just fine. Even DRK usually doesn't pull with Plunge unless he's just using it to tag a mob in between Unmends.

At this point, DRK's speed and mobility has become part of its identity. Giving it to the other tanks feels like giving DRK and WAR a shield, or giving PLD and DRK stack mechanics. And if you want DRK to share that identity it seems only fair that the other tanks share theirs... then you get homogenization, which nobody likes, myself included.

Homogenization is only necessary to the degree to which is required for all jobs of a given type to complete content. Every time a job was flat-out unable to complete content its been fixed in the next major patch, if not sooner.

There's plenty of problems with tank balance but most of them have to do with more fully realizing or fleshing out the unique strengths each tank already has, not making them all copies of eachother. And a gap closer on a tank is being woefully undersold in this thread, it is incredibly useful particularly in boss fights. The boss goes where you go so... yeah. But because of that it IS part of DRK's utility, downplayed as it may be. I wouldn't muddy that any more than I would demand a chain-stun/silence for all tanks, or a combination eye/path for all tanks.

[ADVSS]

That comes with the role though. all healers have an aoe heal, an cleanse and resurrection move, a big heal, various ways to help mitigate, regeneration, a shield ability, i mean thats why the holy trinity is kind of...yay balance. Fuma shuriken flat out out ranges anything btw, even if its a mudra skill, so youre not entirely right. lob, etc have same range as javelin, etc. So what? I agree that drk identity would be in peril but realistically feel like drk didnt really have a chance at a real identity anyway. It was made as competition to the other two established tanks, much like ast for healers, and mch for brd. So it brings one new thing that could have been given to both tanks, that doesnt necessarily mean it breaks its identity at all. If you want to get technical youre gonna be throwing dark arts at the same combo timing as a full stack stack of wrath or youre out of mp. Looks different on paper, till you realize that its pretty much the same thing, with the illusion of being different. Youre right about one thing though, tank differences and balance need to be looked at more so than they have. All the community and devs have said is "youre not a dps" and thats all weve really gotten for role defining.

[Kages]

I can't agree, we need good design, not irrelevant mecanics for the sake of making new mecanics. If it's done on purpose and chosen wisely, there is nothing wrong to make a similar move (not necessary a pure copy).

I really agree with you there. Your example would be the opposing extreme of my example.
I just like to see it this way:
If SE implement plungelike gap-closers for tanks without changing the underlying meta/mechanics there is literally zero use except DPS (if oGCD) for these gap-closers (PvE-wise, as seen with Plunges usage atm).
If SE implement plungelike gap-closers for tanks and implement mechanics using those their implementation would be justifiable.
I fully agree with you that those mechanics should not be lazyly implemented for the sake of implementing them. They just offer options for improvement (I'm not even saying these are the only portions of the game where improvements could be made).
I'm just really against the idea of "I want a skill y, that's like skill x of class z, because class z has it aswell", as this kind of argumentation is often flawed (imho). People often want a skill without actually giving objective reason as to why they think they need it (not talking about the person cited here, just in general).

[Warkupo]

It's DRK's entire identity is hinged on his gap closer then he has way bigger problems.

Personal opinion: Gap closer is kind of fun but not ultimately game changing so why not?