Tanking frustration when others pull

[Ilan]

Personally what i do when someone pulls is say in chat "hey you want to tank, alright I'll dps for you" and then watch them die. Then after that i grab aggro, or if it switches to another person. Makes it so the dont do that anymore

And what would you do if your Monk, BLM or SMN pulls a boss in A6S to keep his stacks or buffs up? Do you let him die or do you just use 1-2 skills, get aggro and be happy that you don't see the enrage? If someone pulls always without a reason, i agree but under certain circumstances it is more important to maintain the dps stacks/buffs then to keep your "I am the tank/boss and i pull no matter what!".

[Lyth]

I think it largely stems from the notion that the tank is the de facto "leader" of the group and a DPS who pulls an extra pack of mobs is somehow circumventing the leader's "authority," nebulous as it may be. A lot of A type personalities gravitate to tanks (literally every raid team I've ever been in, the raid leader is a tank) and having a DPS insinuate that the ideal pace is not being met ruffles feathers.

This might have been true historically, in games with 40-man raids and a "Main Tank". Under such conditions, your MT needed to be your most consistent player. Gearing your tank was a priority. Nowadays, it's nearly the opposite. You're actually more likely to run into that personality type on other roles now, unless they happen to be an anachronism from a bygone era. To play the tank role well, you're expected to be flexible where your teammates are often not.

NIN players in particular often tend to be the most stubborn when it comes to pulls, mainly because some of them are completely dependent on having Huton built into the pull macro in order to time their opener correctly.

I think a tank's preferences in pulls have more to do with the fact that positioning is central to our role. If someone pulls early, it displaces the boss off-centre. This can result in some awkward positioning, which in turn can impact your melee players. The initial pull in A7S is a particularly good example of this, as the positioning is fairly tight and influences whether your melee lose uptime during 8-bombs or not. It's much harder to correct for bad positioning after the fact, and it often results in unnecessary movement.

There are times where it is entirely appropriate for a dps to pull, but it comes down to individual benefit vs. raid benefit. In DF, it doesn't particularly matter. In more challenging content, this is probably something that should be discussed in advance.

[Jas710]

Tank politics go like this:
- Tanks: set the pace, but at the same they should not take unnecessary pauses. Stay in front, be aware of everyone, and keep the group moving forward. Also, don't assume it's okay to pull big.
- Healer: is second banana. If they can handle healing large pulls, they can give the go-ahead to the tank to kick it into overdrive. Otherwise, let the tank do his job.
- DPS: should stfu and prioritize whatever the tank is focused on or whatever is dying the most. Follow the parameters set by the tank and healer. Don't pull, don't do knockbacks, don't fall behind. If a dps person deliberately pulls aggro, tank should let them deal with it. Tank priority is to hold and stabilize their mobs, not risk more chaos from chasing and cleaning up after clueless pullers.

[Neophyte]

Tank politics go like this:
- Tanks: set the pace, but at the same they should not take unnecessary pauses. Stay in front, be aware of everyone, and keep the group moving forward. Also, don't assume it's okay to pull big.

Yes. This includes being aware of a SMN having ~20-30s left on ther stacks or a monk with greased lightning. If I'm aware of such people I expect them to pull If I'm to slow.

- Healer: is second banana. If they can handle healing large pulls, they can give the go-ahead to the tank to kick it into overdrive. Otherwise, let the tank do his job.

If you can handle a big pull mostly comes down to the tank using cooldowns or not.
To be able to do sanctus, aero3, sanctus, assize, CS-off, (DS+)Regen+Tetra + a few heals if necessary after that... instead of having to chain-heal all the time*... is mostly dependend on the tanks CD usage and gear.

*e.g. the difference between a melting tank and a tough one.

- DPS: should stfu and prioritize whatever the tank is focused on or whatever is dying the most. Follow the parameters set by the tank and healer. Don't pull, don't do knockbacks, don't fall behind. If a dps person deliberately pulls aggro, tank should let them deal with it. Tank priority is to hold and stabilize their mobs, not risk more chaos from chasing and cleaning up after clueless pullers.

If a person is way to far away to get it with 1 GCD and only slight movement, then he might just keep it. If the person is running to your AoE position anyway or is staying in melee range (like a MNK getting hate on one mob) how do you even decide to not take that specific mob back in an AoE situation?
Also: If I get hate and tank don't want to get it back, I just use my binds/knockbacks/sleep/slows/defensive CDs... and at least with a SCH I draw enough attention of the fairy to stay alive anyway.

Or, even more simple, If I use (quelling) energy drain early on to keep my stacks and I pull something... if tank does nothing the next thing this mob will do is: attack the healer.
"You pull it, you tank it" works only if the dps keeps attacking this specific mob... else any other player attacking that mob afterwards or a healer will take it. Great job.

"Sry healer for that hit that canceled your spell. Since I'm so stubborn I didn't want to attack this mob before it decided to face you, because I wanted to leave it on the dps." - a really great tank


There might be annyoning things, but I won't rank "healers not doing dps", "tanks not using CDs"/"tank melting", "dps attacking the wrong target", "healer regen before pull", "tank doesn't click of regen between pulls", "dps doing to less damage", "healer overhealing a lot" (Cure II/III spam), "tank/melee stun resisting a has-to-be-stunned add", "tank turning adds", "healer/dps with hate running away from tank instead of to him", etc....
And especially I will never ever do anything to make this for anyone even worse, because I feel some entitlement.
If anything I adapt, because tbh this is the only challenging thing anyway... to just keep or even insist on the same rotation/flow every time in a specific dungeon is way more easier than to be able to make the best out of every bad situation.

[FallenWings]

Personally I just see it as them doing my job for me. If anything it'll make the healer's Medica 2 more effective and it's not like it takes a longtime to take aggro back.

Although it may be very annoying for a under-geared tank who might have to fight for the aggro. The idea of checking people's gear to determine how you do your pulls should apply to others as well instead of just the tank. Play cooperatively for a better experience ya? Selfish attitudes belong in a single player game.

[DoUrden]

As a healer, if I see a DPS pulling mobs frequently, I simply don't heal them. If asked I say I focus on the tank at the start of the pull. No more explanation is given or required beyond that.

[Canadane]

As a healer, if I see a DPS pulling mobs frequently, I simply don't heal them. If asked I say I focus on the tank at the start of the pull. No more explanation is given or required beyond that.

So you don't even consider what other tanks here have mentioned? DPS pulling mobs isn't always a bad thing, and sometimes encouraged.
I mean it's not as if they'll need healing as the tank will rip them back with ease, but the last thing the tank wants is the healer being passive aggressive to a team mate because they think they know how pulls should go.

[Lisotte]

All I can say is - boy I don't miss leveling dungeons, and at lvl 60 dungeons you just pull a couple packs at a time or till you hit a wall and people are usually good.

There's been times where I've seen a DD pull an additional pack but even though I just let him tank it the healer kept him alive fine and we carried on.

[8bitNinja]

I'm mainly seeing an apples to oranges comparison here. Worrying about DPS keeping timers running really only matters in raid situations here you have to worry about enrage timers, which makes sense for them to pull when they know their tank is expecting it. Most of the complaining seems to be in just basic dungeons where do you don't need to have top end dps to clear bosses. Shaving a minute or two off a leveling/50/60/expert roulette isn't too much of a priority for me, but to each their own. Also on a side note, the only dps I really have an issue with while tanking are the ones who pull everything without realising that having only 1 aoe dps class will make large pulls take much longer.

[Gemina]

I think it is fairly obvious if a pulling/tanking DD knows what he's doing opposed to trying to speed things up and effing up any kind of rhythm in the process. A good DD knows when they can speed things up without messing things up. When they do it right, it eases the strain on the tank and healer, not add to it. If you get a knowledgeable and aware DD, LET THEM DO THEIR THING. They will pull when it's appropriate and not a moment before.

I feel it is NEVER ok to be passive aggressive, and deliberately let another player eat dirt. I grow more and more sick of players running content and making assumptions to the knowledge of their teammates instead of coordinating their efforts. We are also passive aggressive by not saying anything. Leaving an instance w/o giving any comms in a fume, or think, "It's DF, and I don't ever have to group with this player again." are good examples a lot of players do. But 40-50-60 minute runs can be greatly reduced if players communicate with each other.

Letting another player die... this should be a last resort kind of thing. You have already communicated to them how their efforts/intentions are hurting the group and they carry on anyway like a deaf monkey. Even then, it might just be best to initiate a vote kick. Players being more flexible in general really goes a long way with making runs go smooth.