I think Enmity generation in early content still needs tuning adjustments

[Eorzean_username]

Sword Oath and Shield Oath

WAR and DRK receive their +Enmity stance at L30, and it feels like content and DPS output is balanced around this inflection point in L30+ Duties.

PLD receives Sword Oath at L30, its DPS stance, and must wait until L40 to receive Shield Oath, its +Enmity stance.

Experienced PLD learn to handle being sync'd down to the L30-40 'hell levels' by using aggressive Savage/Halone tabbing and excessive Flash, etc. However, experienced players are not the focus of my concern.

I constantly encounter new players (Sprouts, or players leveling a Tank for the first time, etc) that struggle terribly in Brayflox, Qarn, and Cutter's Cry (and sometimes Haukke).

Multiple times I've tried to offer tips, and received apologies because they think they're a terrible tank and want to give up. I'm losing count of the number of fresh PLD I've had to reassure to hold out until L40, and that no, they're not just awful.

A new player learning to tank is often already struggling and intimidated enough, on top of being undergeared compared to sync'd-down DPS. Deliberately giving PLD a DPS stance, when the other tanks have their +Enmity stance, only further increases the pressure and confusion as DPS and Healers constantly rip targets away despite the new PLD's best efforts.

I see this as a pointless and unnecessary torment for Sprouts/new tanks, in a Role that already has difficulty attracting and retaining players. Please consider swapping Shield Oath to the L30 reward and moving Sword Oath to the L40 reward.

Low-level Tanks in general

Enmity generation at lower levels also needs to be looked at since the 3.2 changes (despite the adjustments made in 3.2x). Sprout or new tanks of all three Jobs are under enormous pressure from sync'd-down DPS and Healers before their +Enmity stance, and less-experienced players simply have Enmity ripped off non-stop.

It does not make sense to me that the Tanking role's task of holding Enmity is made so difficult at the earliest levels, when new players are trying and testing it. This leads to early frustration, guilt, or discouragement in a Role that needs more interest, not less.

I do appreciate the sense of progression designed in to the system currently. It is a triumphant feeling to struggle with Enmity at first, then figure out how it works and do better. It's also very vindicating to finally receive your +Enmity stance and begin effortlessly holding entire packs of enemies.

However, I think this sense of progression is not worth the cost, because the number of players it simply discourages completely very likely outweighs the number that stubbornly persevere through a consistently stressful experience for 15-25 levels.

And, if nothing else, it's just not a very fun experience for most players that do struggle through it the first time, especially while also struggling with being undergeared.

[Launched]

It doesn't. Low level tanks just need to use more Flash/Overpower/Unleash and not have gear 10 levels under their current level. They don't even make an effort to keep up with NPC gear.

[Jukebox12]

Pld is proably easiest class to hold aggro. At lvl 40+ we don't need to make it super easy. It's a game its supposed to be challenging. Please stop posting these kinds of topics. We should't hand feed our tanks or hand feed our players

[Khalithar]

When I started the game a little bit before HW launched (I powered through all of the ARR storylines in about a month to get ready for the xpac because goddammit I wanted dark knight asap) I had a lot of trouble holding enmity as a gladiator in my very first dungeon run. I ended up asking the party I was in for help and some experienced players were very kind in giving me advice on how to play as a lowbie, i.e. spam flash and use riot blade to keep my MP up and it helped a little but they were still ripping off of me. When I asked if there was anything else I could do they said "if someone is ripping threat off of you but the monster is dying that fast, don't worry about it, just let them kill it and focus on the surviving ones."

The fact is that a brand new marauder or gladiator just getting in to dungeons for the very first time is not going to be able to hold threat off max ilevel (in the lowbie dungeons) brds or blms. I'd say the better thing to do in that situation is to tell the lowbie tank "hey, I'm pretty overgeared for this, if you can't hold threat off me don't worry about it." That being said though there is a possible solution I came up with, I'm about to make up numbers here but bear with me.

Let's pretend with shield oath a paladin generates 200 extra threat on all attacks and a Gladiator/Paladin without it generates 0 extra threat on all attacks. What if we adjust those numbers? Give Paladin and Gladiator (before shield oath) 100 extra threat on all moves and then once the Paladin receives shield oath the number goes back to 200. Now granted this might tanking in sword oath a little easier, but I always felt the risk you take for tanking in dps stance shouldn't be lower threat generation but the increased damage you take.

I'm not sure how it might work for Warrior or Dark Knight, but I think that idea above could easily work for paladin/gladiator.

[Tint]

the irony is that the dark knight - wich starts at lvl 30 - has probably the easiest job keeping enmity in low lvl before 30 xD

spamming unleash, and then using blood weapon to get the mana back while using the enmity combo.

the problem in low lvl is that only 1 of the 2 hits of your enmity combo have an enmity multiplier. once you have the 3rd hit it's 2 of 3 hits with enmity multiplier and things are getting much easier. probably they should take away some enmity generation from the 3rd hit and put it on the first? nah, even if it helps, i don't like this idea myself xD

btw: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/wiki/enmity

[TallonOverworld]

Warrior and dark knight never really had enmity issues unless you mess up your skills but aggro combos are pretty straightforward and for aoe, unleash and overpower do perfectly since they both deal damage and generate aggro.

Pld mby has the only issue but its not that dramatic. Single target combo finalizes at 26 with rage of halone and flash is the way to go until 40 (becomes better with shield oath).
But i believe if tanks marked their targets for dps and healers stop heal non-stop there is hardly an aggro problem in this game.

[Hasrat]

Pfft. It's pretty rare to see anyone in low level content take marked targets seriously. Half the time folks will actively go against it.

Even if it's sorta functional to tank at those levels, I would propose it's not a very fun experience. Whether various ideas to "fix" the problems would address that, dunno. But, "spam Flash for the next 10 levels" doesn't seem like a great way to draw in tanks.

Arguably, many classes can feel similarly rigid, so maybe that's a poor argument to make. Idk.

[Archaell]

Tanking is basically a soft version of pvp - you need to fight against the enmity of other players.

The enmity generation isn't that bad for experienced and lvl synced players... but for the new undergeared paladins (tanks) it can be serious pain to play with overgeared players who have the habbit to get out as much dps as possible - and I can't say that having the choice between slacking or stealing the enmity is enjoyable for the dps in roulettes either.

It wouldn't hurt to put enmity modifier on the low level weapons tbh.

[Fluffernuff]

Honestly, while low level newbie sprout taking is hardly relevant to any sort balance discussion, in this case it is a serious problem. Tanking is serviceable at such level, but clunky. and I would hardly call it "easy"

I mean even as ilvl 233 tanks with more than enough experience in say... sastasha, it is actually difficult if not actually impossible to even hold single-target emnity. in my case using my emnity combo or Flash/OP/Unleash will have me steadily losing emnity to the DPS at those levels. it becomes a race. im not tanking. im DPSing as much as my level 18 butt can so the thing dies before it turns around. its rare that things last that long, but it can and does happen with another evenly "skilled" or synced DPS.... like a BLM or BRD.

I don't have a proposed change. its a delicate thing. But I also cant agree with one of the 3 roles of the trinity being impossible at best and outright useless and uneeded at worst, even at "irrelevant" levels. besides... how is that even fun for you? "let me just queue for this thing and be useless and expendable!"

Then again, we can keep this prideful mentality. weed out the weak so only the strong are in the DF! we need even LESS tanks to queue with! We want to wait longer than the time-out penalty because our rare and elusive tank bailed on us!

I'm all for good design that actually teaches newbies what the heck to actually do but trial by fire in such a way that theyre actually useless at best and actively scorned on top of that doesnt actually teach them anything either.

[Shurrikhan]

If the Bard unloads 400 potency within the first half-second of combat (Heavy Shot + Bloodletter + Auto-attack), you're not going to hold it with a mere Shield Lob unless you outgear the Bard. But, that's the Bard's fault if he then complains, and fails to take the ripped mob to your others. He can as easily wait for a following Flash, or bring the mob to it, to never end up targeted or get it off by the second GCD. Most issues you'll find with tanking in early dungeons are much the same, as long as your gear is up to level. If Sword Oath isn't sufficient, it's because your dps are splitting your output paths (one wailing on a single mob, which Flash might not be able to keep up with, while the other is only AoEing, or worse, each on a different mob); if they establish and follow a kill order together, extreme difference in crit rates are about the only thing that should pull of you.

I just wonder why this burden is considered to fall only on the tank when every party member is potentially responsible for mob positioning (see healer-based mob gathers, or ranged kiting). Early levels should be when mobs are being practically vaporized in series, and Fluid Aura still feels like a full-length CC, and no shits are given when a dps takes threat from the tank because he has defensive cooldowns too and is moving right alongside the tank.

As such, I caution changes made to make tanking easier by sheer numbers. It teaches the dps little to nothing about how NOT to rip threat. I'd be more than happy to see more game advice thrown in, though, without having to rely on the community who in a given run, may all be under-utilizing their tools.

If we do go the way of numbers though, I'd kind of like to see Flash and Overpower's massive enmity multipliers as being the answer to virtually everything, which can be done with a tiny bit of increased enmity on single-target combos. But that's just me.