Should PLD and WAR get gap-closers at 70?

[Jonnycbad]

I know this was unique to DRK at 60 but moving forward it would be nice for other tanks to get it too. If you look at other roles:

All healers have a cleanse
All healers have an AoE cure
All healers have some kind of native shield skill

All melee DPS have at least 2 stuns
All melee DPS have 2 DoTs

etc

DRK had a monopo0ly on gap closers among tanks, but would be cool if other tanks got it at later levels. Could make them more unique to spice it up:


WAR 66- Rampage
Rushes to target and delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
Defiance: Additional Effect: Weight
Deliverance: Additional Effect: Stun
Recast: 40 sec

PLD 70- Shield Charge
Rushes to target while delivering an attack with a potency 100 to all enemies in a straight line before you.
Shield Oath: Additional Effect: Stun
Recast: 60 sec

Shield Charge would be like Shoulder Tackle but any enemies between you and the target get damaged while you're dashing to said target.

[Lyth]

Sure. In exchange, I'll take Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle, off-gcd stance swaps, Spirits Within, an on-demand stun, a magic damage version of Cover, Sheltron, Fight or Flight, Divine Veil, and an invincibility move that isn't healer dependent.

Every tank already has a method of negating knockback, one of which doesn't even require a target.

[ArdorGrey]

Sure. In exchange, I'll take Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle, off-gcd stance swaps, Spirits Within, an on-demand stun, a magic damage version of Cover, Sheltron, Fight or Flight, Divine Veil, and an invincibility move that isn't healer dependent.

Every tank already has a method of negating knockback, one of which doesn't even require a target.

Funny how the person that constantly creates opportunities to talk about how superior they are for playing the "truly challenging class" "becoz mp managment is kewel" turns around and says they want every great ability every other tank has just to do away with how archaic lacking gap closers on tanks is.

Tanks are expected to lead dungeon runs. and yet they are the *least* mobile class by a wide margin, drk just slightly less than the other two.

This is *terrible design*, not something to stroke your ego over. It's the very definition of counter-intuitive.

Then again you're contrary enough to insist WAR is terribly designed, and then turn around and say you want all their goodies and much, much, more. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

That said, it's possible to give other tanks gap closers while maintaining(and hopefully expanding) each tanks unique flavor and gameplay style.

EDIT: to be fair, I actually use equilibrium to sprint in dungeons, especially if I have a good ninja in my group. So maybe WAR doesn't need it.

But some sort of shield charge for pld would be great and perfectly thematic, basically every sword and board archetype ever has something along those lines, it's kinda weird that it isn't here.

Personally I'd rather see it as a single target high potency ability instead of an Aoe, though that would be further cramping drks style I suppose, and doubling as an aoe might help make pld more appealing for dungeon runs period, since right now they're strictly the worst for that.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Tanks are expected to lead dungeon runs. and yet they are the *least* mobile class by a wide margin, drk just slightly less than the other two.

A gap closer is not a mobility increase its actually a mobility limiter. The Paladin is currently the most mobile class in the game with proper use of Tempered Will.

Usable Harpoons (i.e. Holmgang without the bind) are actually better for tanks than gap closers as the ability to position enemies is more important than the ability to get to a target faster.

In theory that sounds nice. the truth is that in most cases using it like that is a strict dps loss. Its anti knockback/gap closing property is very secondary to it's primary function as a secondary dps cooldown. It could really shine in an OT role if drk had other tools that made it an attractive OT, but that isn't the case atm.

I really wish the Tank meta wasn't so DpS obsessed. It is rather saddening to see utility abilities used more for a ~7 potency per sec increase rather than their actual utility.

[ArdorGrey]

A gap closer is not a mobility increase its actually a mobility limiter. The Paladin is currently the most mobile class in the game with proper use of Tempered Will.

I can both agree and disagree with this, I guess it all depends on how you look at it.

Usable Harpoons (i.e. Holmgang without the bind) are actually better for tanks than gap closers as the ability to position enemies is more important than the ability to get to a target faster.

I've wished for the longest time that they'd separate the harpoon effect from the rest of holmgang and give it a lower CD timer. I'd say "we can only hope for 4.0", but that would only further help WAR's already very good utility situation. :/

I really wish the Tank meta wasn't so DpS obsessed. It is rather saddening to see utility abilities used more for a ~7 potency per sec increase rather than their actual utility.

I wish that went for all classes. So many great stun opportunities are wrecked by everyone using their stuns on CD for the dps increase.

[Dzian]

I really wish the Tank meta wasn't so DpS obsessed. It is rather saddening to see utility abilities used more for a ~7 potency per sec increase rather than their actual utility.

This I can agree with. but it's the same for all classes really. can't tell you how many times I've tried to stun something and.

I wish that went for all classes. So many great stun opportunities are wrecked by everyone using their stuns on CD for the dps increase.

This.

Sadly DPS is the only thing that ever matters. healing and mitigation are both total jokes. hence even healers spend 95% of there time doing dps.....

more to the op's topic though don't really need a gap closer but I do wish tempered will had a lower cooldown

[Reynhart]

Tanks are expected to lead dungeon runs. and yet they are the *least* mobile class by a wide margin, drk just slightly less than the other two.

I'd say that since they're expected to lead the dungeon runs, they have no "catching-up" to do, so they don't really need a gap closer.
Even when some monsters move far away, a tank is supposed to bring it back instead of rushing after it.

[ArdorGrey]

I'd say that since they're expected to lead the dungeon runs, they have no "catching-up" to do, so they don't really need a gap closer.
Even when some monsters move far away, a tank is supposed to bring it back instead of rushing after it.

casters can burn sprint on cd. dps are all chomping at the bit, either letting their buffs drop while their cds go unused as they inch up bit by bit behind the waddling tank or rushing ahead and then running back with aggro and hoping the tank is happy to pull of them rather than get salty about pre-pulling. it isn't about catching up, it's about efficient CD use as a group.

[Reynhart]

casters can burn sprint on cd. dps are all chomping at the bit, either letting their buffs drop while their cds go unused as they inch up bit by bit behind the waddling tank or rushing ahead and then running back with aggro and hoping the tank is happy to pull of them rather than get salty about pre-pulling. it isn't about catching up, it's about efficient CD use as a group.

It's especially fine we don't have a gap closer in this situation. Let them pull, let them die, let them learn respect for tanks.

[Lyth]

snip

It would seem that you have me at a bit of a disadvantage, sir. You seem quite overly familiar with me, whereas I haven't the foggiest idea who you are. I'm not sure how I have previously given offence or why you are so heated on the matter, but since you've addressed me directly, I'll see if I can shed some clarity on my post.

I don't recall ever saying that WAR is "poorly designed". The general consensus here and elsewhere is that WAR is very well designed (perhaps a bit too well designed).

Similarly, a lot of the same people would argue that DRK lacks synergy and is designed quite poorly. I wouldn't go out of my way to contest this. I love my "poorly designed" DRK. Some people prefer automatic, others prefer to drive manual. Perhaps I'm contrarian in my tastes, but that's certainly not open for you or anyone else to decide.

If you look at the list that I put out (my favourite things), only two of the abilities listed are actually taken from WAR's kit. Having been a WAR main for nearly two years prior to HW, I can tell you that outside of their self-heals, I have little interest in borrowing their skills (you can give Path/Eye to PLD, if you really must find another tank job to share them with). PLD, on the other hand, has some amazing utility skills that are frequently overshadowed by players' fixation on dps. I can think of plenty of instances in progression where I would love to have access to DV or Hallowed.

When you play a tank job, you'll always miss having skills on the other jobs, forcing you to adapt or play differently. I don't think it's unfair to point out all of the advantages that each tank brings, when you choose to single out one of the few utility skills in DRKs kit that truly outshines its equivalents on other tank jobs.