Gear and Content

[azura84]

Generally I like to think of myself as an optimist, but this games development is turning me into a troll. I do believe the devs are working hard, it is evident in there schedules.

What disturbs me most about this games progress though is it's continuous deletion or obseletion of content and gear. Instead of repairing or providing new content for existing factions such as Brotherhood and Aegis' they release the 'Grand Companies'... pardon me but, what the hell, why not make the current Factions an existing measure in the game instead of creating more 'grand' ones.

This goes for dungeons as well, with the release of Ifrit, Ifrit Prime, and materia melding, Darkhold became almost entirely vacant. Without the ability to swap gear properly there isn't a reason to own multiple gear sets in this game. So my question is, why is FFXIV trying so hard to be unlike FFXI and more like WoW?

I quit XI because the level increase was going to destroy most of the old content, and so it did. The idea of the level increase may have been fine if all of the other content in the game was adjusted accordingly but it wasn't, and it made it more difficult for new players to enjoy when there wasn't any incentive for the veterans to help them.

The devs of XI made great efforts at giving players incentive to support new members, so why, instead of giving us seals for repeating dungeons, putting further use to guild marks, or offering balanced rewards for continuing factions, are you going in the complete opposite direction and making Bucc gear, Harli gear, Dungeon gear and most previously +3 HQ gear entirely worthless?

Also why is there such a resistance to dual-boxing, the FFEVO Windower program was a brilliant program that even seemed to stabilize your games engine. If people are willing to have multiple accounts and you're going to start charging them when your game isn't even 50% complete why should you give a whoot'n'nanny how they play accounts on your game?


Are there ANY plans to re-implement use of gear or content previously released?

[slipmac]

i feel the same way

[Teakwood]

The devs of XI made great efforts at giving players incentive to support new members...

Did they, though? Other than wanting to help your friends get sea/sky access so they could do whatever endgame stuff with you... FFXI was actually really, really terrible about this.

I'm on the fence about this, myself - I personally loved FFXI's "s[tuff] is situational" approach and horizontal gear progression. However, it's virtually impossible to keep people doing old content without (pick approximately two):

a) making the content so difficult that nobody can do it - which isn't feasible, because if you make it -just difficult enough-, once people get sufficiently skilled, the difficulty is no longer a barrier to gear saturation, although the content tends to be a lot more fun this way! If you make things -too- difficult, though, the content just leads to longstanding player rage. (Hi, AV! Heck, most of CoP pre-nerf could count, depending on how vindictive you're feeling.)

b) making the drop rates absolutely horribly low, which is unsatisfying from a gameplay perspective,

c) putting enormously restrictive cooldown timers on everything, which is also unsatisfying,

d) requiring extremely specific set-ups in order to do the fight, which is basically fake difficulty.

The only solution to this that I'm aware of is to not actually worry about reward saturation and assume that there will always be people working their way up the vertical-progression ladder. I'm not actually sure that this is feasible unless you have a constant inflow of new subscribers, and this interacts really weirdly with the Armoury System (leveling up a second job and doing lower-level content for gear for your second job? Having trouble with a boss? Everyone switches to their 50 jobs and they roll the sucker), but...

I think I can see where MMO developers in general and SE's dev team in specific have themselves in a corner about this. It's a difficult game design question and I'm not sure there are any easy answers. I don't like to see obsolete content, but at the same time I know I can't come up with valid incentives for people to do older content in the way the game intends.

Thoughts?

[azura84]

Did they, though? Other than wanting to help your friends get sea/sky access so they could do whatever endgame stuff with you... FFXI was actually really, really terrible about this.

I'm on the fence about this, myself - I personally loved FFXI's "s[tuff] is situational" approach and horizontal gear progression. However, it's virtually impossible to keep people doing old content without (pick approximately two):

a) making the content so difficult that nobody can do it - which isn't feasible, because if you make it -just difficult enough-, once people get sufficiently skilled, the difficulty is no longer a barrier to gear saturation, although the content tends to be a lot more fun this way! If you make things -too- difficult, though, the content just leads to longstanding player rage. (Hi, AV! Heck, most of CoP pre-nerf could count, depending on how vindictive you're feeling.)

b) making the drop rates absolutely horribly low, which is unsatisfying from a gameplay perspective,

c) putting enormously restrictive cooldown timers on everything, which is also unsatisfying,

d) requiring extremely specific set-ups in order to do the fight, which is basically fake difficulty.

The only solution to this that I'm aware of is to not actually worry about reward saturation and assume that there will always be people working their way up the vertical-progression ladder. I'm not actually sure that this is feasible unless you have a constant inflow of new subscribers, and this interacts really weirdly with the Armoury System (leveling up a second job and doing lower-level content for gear for your second job? Having trouble with a boss? Everyone switches to their 50 jobs and they roll the sucker), but...

I think I can see where MMO developers in general and SE's dev team in specific have themselves in a corner about this. It's a difficult game design question and I'm not sure there are any easy answers. I don't like to see obsolete content, but at the same time I know I can't come up with valid incentives for people to do older content in the way the game intends.

Thoughts?

I like this, and I have to agree with something you said later on. You can never make everyone happy in an MMO.

a) I personally enjoy extreme difficulty, it means i need to use my brain more.

b) I wish they would bring back competitive NM camping, as frustrating as it can be it is also what made those rewards so valuable not to mention they were generally extremely useful even with extremely low drop rates.

c) I'm not understanding your meaning for cooldown timers here, If you mean the cooldown between entering a dungeon or NM spawn then I would have to disagree. The time spent prepairing for something in this game seems too rushed because there is no cooldown, this means everyone usually rushes in with whatever they have and get mad when it doesn't work.

d) AV..... yea.... that was a bit ridiculous, and even more so when people figured out a way to do it via KC-DRK and later on extreme SCH DoT's only to get these methods nerfed because they weren't the way SE wanted them to do it.


The armory system is designed for horizontal gameplay, but they are forcing players to level jobs because of the lack of content anyways. So it's simply just lots of vertical atm.

What I am personally hoping for is by 1.20 or 1.22 they will have all of this mess of inequality sorted out, provide good use of progression via quest/mission order, and allow for overall better flow for new members.

P.S. Have you started a new character lately? the tutorials are amazing now!

[Bluetaro]

One way they could address the trivializing of old content would be to implement rewards that are unique or meaningful even with the release of new raids/bosses.

In XI, the Chains of Promathia expansion accomplished this perfectly. It offered players a quality storyline with a reward to match at the very end, as well as zone access to Sea. The way I see it, if XIV continues down the path they currently are with the trivializing of the previous tier every time they implement a new instance or primal, they are going to end up in the same situation as WoW where all of the old content is no longer used and essentially becomes a waste of space.

I agree with the OP that old content should be built to last, so that at the very least players have the option of completing them for meaningful rewards. To those who argue that maintaining old content is repetitive and boring (by arguing that players would be forced to run them over and over again), all you have to do is continue to release new content and instances so that the game continues to grow and provides players new things to do. Giving players more options of where to raid, which bosses to fight, or which instances to run seems like the smart choice instead of releasing a vertically oriented progression system in which you throw away all of the previous content you developed.

Imagine if there was a quest line attached with Dzemel Darkhold that offered a new zone to players as a reward? I promise you that would keep the instance relevant for a long time. You would see new and old players (LS mates who want to help unlock access for their friends) continuing to run that area even if there weren't any loot upgrades.

[Gidonoidon_Sur]

Agree, I loved that in XI you could have a level 12 pair of shoes have a purpose at cap level. It made gear 'mythic' to me instead of "[insert new released metal here] Breastplate" - type gear. Anyway, I hope they replicate Nyzul/Assaults/Salvage/Limbus-type dungeons. Particularly Nyzul. I mean, you had randomly designed dungeons with different objectives/monsters and possibly debuffs. It really made for some variable content. Hopefully Crystal Tower will be similar in nature to that as we need some serious progression content.

[Bluetaro]

Agree, I loved that in XI you could have a level 12 pair of shoes have a purpose at cap level.

Leaping boots was level 7

But +1 to your post for truth.

[Teakwood]

Except that people complained about that sort of gear progression constantly in FFXI.

You can never please 100% of the playerbase, you can't even please 55% of the playerbase with everything.

(In terms of actual content design though, despite the issues that some of the systems had, FFXI did really well in my opinion and I've got high hopes for the Crystal Tower in XIV.)

[Urthdigger]

...do you really want a level 50 dungeon dropping the best gear in the game, even after the level cap goes up? Do you really want gear to never become even a smidgen more powerful than what we have at the moment?

[azura84]

...do you really want a level 50 dungeon dropping the best gear in the game, even after the level cap goes up? Do you really want gear to never become even a smidgen more powerful than what we have at the moment?

Most of us don't play RPGs to feel like a Dragonball Z character, yes there always need to be some vertical progression in an RPG but I think most of us who play FF endgame will agree it is usually horizontal gameplay requiring less brute force of level and more strategy around gear design and character type selections. Having played FF 7, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 I think its safe to they all hold this pattern of endgame.