Fix paladin. Only Class in the entire game that cannot...

[Shurrikhan]

PLDs who use clemency in dungeons are the worst. Bad enough you have no aoe dps but you think stopping any dps you have is helping. smh and no joke, I have kicked paladins for refusing to stop doing that.

This is beyond foolish.

Consider the potency that can be done in one PLD GCD against the potency than can be done in whatever Healer GCDs that Clemency affords. Barring counter-synergy with Bulwark, you'd be hard pressed for Clemency not to be worthwhile in any 3+ mobs AoE pull, especially when the alternative would have only been to waste Blind DRs for the same enmity without any healing.

In single-target, during Clemency, with a 2.42 GCD or less, it fills basically the same function that Shield Swipe did before becoming an ability; it keeps you from wasting a tick of Riot Blade. During Convalescence, especially, with a HoT already placed at the start and to be placed at the tail, this becomes more than just viable. The loss is less than 200 potency, and if it allows a single extra Malefic II or Stone III, is quickly balanced out. You'd be hard pressed for a heal of 10k+ not to be worth that. And unless the Paladin needs to save someone with it later, the mana cost is insignificant.

Tldr; if the healer can AoE and it's not interrupting the PLD rotations, it's neutral at worst.

[Xenosan]

This is starting to sound like the stack-parry argument. Thinking that Clemency is keeping your healer in Cleric is a hypothetical. your healers DPS output depends 99% on that player, 0.9% on the weather, and 0.1% on you. Healing I've got a set opening DPS rotation and stance dance that either used or not. You Clemency mid-fight is hardly going to factor, more-so now than 2.x with Tetegration and Essential Dig. At worst you are going to have me waste it and at best I'll toss an Aspected Benefit / Regen refresh / Adlo that I otherwise would have not.

Not implying Clemency doesn't have a purpose, is bad, or that there aren't times it's worth using mid-fight, but toss this garbage idea that you somehow boosting healer DPS numbers that other healers in DRK/WAR groups will not achieve. Shenanigans. This isn't a case of PLD toolkit having an alternate route that DRK/WAR do not, they simply lack. It's been known for 3+ years. Whats this attempted spin?

AOE is niche or over-rated, seriously what game you playing? Most recent activity the game introduced is YOKAI and POTD. But yep forget AOE, who needs that. Shouting Clemency doesn't reinforce you point, it argues the contrary.

Though I would admit that PLD getting an AOE at level 62 or whenever comes about 52 levels too late, when it would have been more valued during the early leveling process and not post HW. But that is why with 4.0 what I'm curious about is how they implement new abilities. Will it be like HW, lvls 62,64,etc or will they be implemented at lower levels. They say that 4.0 won't require HW, does that imply not requiring lvl60 either? IDK.

[ADVSS]

is Heavensward really not going to be required for this new expansion? I wonder if theyd keep the jobs locked in ishgard, then

[Lyth]

To be perfectly fair, there's usually a few situations each raid tier where an enterprising tank can pop an AoE move for few GCDs in order to gain a nice dps boost. That's not to mention the fact that AoE heavy fights (T4/A2S) do pop up every now and then.

I wouldn't begrudge an AoE dps move on PLD. Are there any bigger priorities for PLD's kit at the moment? Aside from possibly a TP generation skill, I can't really think of any other significant deficiencies. DPS can always be fine-tuned through potency numbers.

What baffles me, however, is the staunch insistence that PLD get an MP based AoE dps move. I understand that PLDs run into TP issues in longer fights. But that's because we actually use TP. The solution is to adjust TP management.

The problem with tying skills to MP on PLD is that it just sits there. Skills like Clemency and Stoneskin use it, but their cast times are the main restriction. Your stances use it, but the GCD activation means that you're not flipping back and forth between the stances frivolously. The role of MP on PLD is historical/lore-based, at best. It isn't really a job mechanic.

You often find yourself sitting on max MP for large portions of a fight, especially in single target. It would be different if you had more skills which used MP and you were actually required to use them at set intervals. For example, if your oGCDs, like CoS, SW, and FoF (perhaps even a few defensive cooldowns) cost you MP, then you could actually talk about "MP management". At the moment, about the worst that you can do to yourself is lock yourself in ShO after overzealous flash spam (or SwO, but I'm not sure why you'd be spamming Flash from full MP down to zero MP without the benefit of your tank stance enmity multiplier).

An alternative approach could be to give PLD a TP restoration ability which costs MP. Then you could try to create a balancing act between offensive physical attacks which cost TP, against support-based and defensive abilities which cost MP. (i.e. Decision-making along similar lines to "Do I Energy Drain with this Aetherflow stack, or do I use it on a Lustrate or Sacred Soil?")

If you want an AoE move which does dps and costs MP, you have to first solve the underlying problem of making MP meaningful on PLD. That way, you make the job into a fun and engaging gameplay experience.

[ADVSS]

If you want an AoE move which does dps and costs MP, you have to first solve the underlying problem of making MP meaningful on PLD. That way, you make the job into a fun and engaging gameplay experience.

I agree, the only issue is, if mp management becomes a pld mechanic, well there goes the DRK=PLD jokes, if it becomes an issue of TP it becomes warrior lite. Maybe have the aoe cost tp, balance it with a cooldown like convert ---> 20% MP for 20% TP or a spell that restores TP over time?

EDIT:exactly what you suggested, sorry.

[Kitfox]

What baffles me, however, is the staunch insistence that PLD get an MP based AoE dps move. I understand that PLDs run into TP issues in longer fights. But that's because we actually use TP. The solution is to adjust TP management...
...If you want an AoE move which does dps and costs MP, you have to first solve the underlying problem of making MP meaningful on PLD. That way, you make the job into a fun and engaging gameplay experience.

Yes, we all want a fun and engaging class but even more than that, I should think we want a balanced class. People arguing for a simple MP AoE damage ability, at least in my case, just want to fix the class as soon as possible, before they go on to make major overhauls of the whole class. Boring and balanced is still better than boring and imbalanced. Also, some people just prefer the way PLD works currently and wouldn't want major changes.

MP based AoE might not be the most engaging option in the current design, but at least it would work and be in line with the output of other tanks. Any other option would require multiple changes to the class and be a much larger balancing operation. I think it's a perfectly reasonable stance go for a simple fix instead of a complicated one.

[ErdrickLoto]

Yes, we all want a fun and engaging class but even more than that, I should think we want a balanced class. People arguing for a simple MP AoE damage ability, at least in my case, just want to fix the class as soon as possible, before they go on to make major overhauls of the whole class. Boring and balanced is still better than boring and imbalanced. Also, some people just prefer the way PLD works currently and wouldn't want major changes.

An MP-based AoE on PLD is not "boring and balanced". The WAR AoE costs 130 TP - a fair amount, though WAR has good TP regeneration from what I know. DRK's AoE uses MP, because being an MP-based physical class is DRK's schtick. PLD barely uses its MP, so an MP-based AoE would be an absurd boon for it.

...I'm not sure how "TP-based AoE" would be a complicated fix, either.

[Daniolaut]

Updated original post to reflect everything thats been said so far.

From our mostly clear ability to agree that its needs to be fixed.

but also our obvious inability to agree on how to fix it.

[zuzu-bq]

PLDs who use clemency in dungeons are the worst. Bad enough you have no aoe dps but you think stopping any dps you have is helping. smh and no joke, I have kicked paladins for refusing to stop doing that.

My healer's AoE GCD Spell is stronger than any GCD I can make as a PLD. Why not Clemency for the sake of group damage? You're just prioritizing personal damage over raid damage now. Like Shurrikhan said, this is indeed beyond foolish.

An MP-based AoE on PLD is not "boring and balanced". The WAR AoE costs 130 TP - a fair amount, though WAR has good TP regeneration from what I know. DRK's AoE uses MP, because being an MP-based physical class is DRK's schtick. PLD barely uses its MP, so an MP-based AoE would be an absurd boon for it.

Hmm... not if you tone it on a really small potency like something between 30~50 and make it inside Flash Trait so WARs can't abuse from it. Wouldn't be game changing, wouldn't be bad and wouldn't be strong either. I fasilt to see how your argument justify this as absurd. Like really, the best option for PLD aoe today is spam Goring on multiple targets.

[Kitfox]

An MP-based AoE on PLD is not "boring and balanced". The WAR AoE costs 130 TP - a fair amount, though WAR has good TP regeneration from what I know. DRK's AoE uses MP, because being an MP-based physical class is DRK's schtick. PLD barely uses its MP, so an MP-based AoE would be an absurd boon for it.

...I'm not sure how "TP-based AoE" would be a complicated fix, either.

Of course it would be a boon. Because PLD needs one for AoE dmg. Hasn't this been clear throughout the whole thread? A boon is well justified. 60-100 potency AoE is not absurd at all. It wouldn't change PLD gameplay at all except for against 4+ or 5+ enemies depending on the potency they went with.