Fix paladin. Only Class in the entire game that cannot...

[Brian_]

PLDs who use clemency in dungeons are the worst. Bad enough you have no aoe dps but you think stopping any dps you have is helping. smh and no joke, I have kicked paladins for refusing to stop doing that.

Except if you have a WHM, they can spam holy from start to finish of a massive pull and out DPS actual DPS and you will not die even if they don't spend a single cast healing you.

[ADVSS]

PLDs who use clemency in dungeons are the worst. Bad enough you have no aoe dps but you think stopping any dps you have is helping. smh and no joke, I have kicked paladins for refusing to stop doing that.

WHY?! you do realize healing magic contributes to enmity right? Clemency is like the most fun PLD can have...

[Reynhart]

The game is not balanced around the player's tendency to pull everything they can and AoE it down. That is a play style we have adopted and one SE has tried to stop.

The only way for them to stop that should be to give incentive for a different meta.
They could put secondary objectives in dungeons/trials to reward a "safer" playstyle.

[Xenosan]

@3 mobs, PLD can multi DoT with GB without clipping for 340 ppgcd. Overpower is 360 ppgcd, Unleash is 300 ppgcd, and AD is 360 ppgcd.

How many times did you Flash so you can Goring for 9 GCDs?

I'm not expecting or hoping for a change. This is all old news. PLD is getting AOE in 4.0 like they got more than one combo in 3.0. Welcome to XIV's sword and board.

[Brian_]

The only way for them to stop that should be to give incentive for a different meta.
They could put secondary objectives in dungeons/trials to reward a "safer" playstyle.

Incentive? They already accomplish this in raid content and in some leveling content. If stuff hits hard enough that you can't survive then people won't pull it.

It's just that these days they're too afraid to make dungeons anything but face roll.

[Alistaire]

Except if you have a WHM, they can spam holy from start to finish of a massive pull and out DPS actual DPS and you will not die even if they don't spend a single cast healing you.

Way to hot potato the argument. In a massive pull yes, if a whm is dps'ing and you actually need to self-cure, go for it. But ya know what? Neither other tank has that issue because they actually contribute to dps in those situations. Also newsflash: holy stuns mobs. If you wait for those stuns to become noneffective, then properly use your cooldowns, you'll find you can keep dps'ing instead of playing healer.

Back to what was being talked about, 3 mob pulls:

@3 mobs, PLD can multi DoT with GB without clipping for 340 ppgcd. Overpower is 360 ppgcd, Unleash is 300 ppgcd, and AD is 360 ppgcd.

You understand that's not accurate right? You have to if you play PLD at all; there's no way you're getting full dot potency when your dot is attached to your 3rd combo hit of your non enmity combo. By the time you've even applied the dot to your 3rd mob you're 19-20 seconds into the pull if you haven't done any flashes, and then of course the mobs are all over the place. Lets say you flash twice then start this, your first mob is only getting the dot 12 seconds in, and honestly if trash mobs are lasting long enough for full potency starting there, I've already ditched.

And then 4+ mob pulls you significantly fall behind even by your messed up calculations. If a person was always right based on the idea of presenting some numbers nobody'd ever fail a math test.

WHY?! you do realize healing magic contributes to enmity right? Clemency is like the most fun PLD can have...

Oh the days in xi with paladins and their max hp sets for this.

[ADVSS]

Oh the days in xi with paladins and their max hp sets for this.

That bad huh? never played 11 but I feel like that was a bad strat.

[Alistaire]

That bad huh? never played 11 but I feel like that was a bad strat.

Enmity was way different there. It had a cap, actually 2 caps, there were 2 enmity bars, one of which deteriorated over time, and all kinds of bosses had moves that would flat out reset it, making it as if you hadn't touched the mob yet. So yeah there were times you needed to do all kinds of crazy stuff to get it back.

[Brian_]

Way to hot potato the argument. In a massive pull yes, if a whm is dps'ing and you actually need to self-cure, go for it. But ya know what? Neither other tank has that issue because they actually contribute to dps in those situations. Also newsflash: holy stuns mobs. If you wait for those stuns to become noneffective, then properly use your cooldowns, you'll find you can keep dps'ing instead of playing healer.

The other tanks contribute DPS but neither has the self sustain of a PLD so they still need healer care. Including properly executed holy stunning, a PLD can survive even the largest pulls for 30+ seconds without needing a single heal. Try asking your healer to not heal you for 30+ seconds as a WAR or DRK and see how that goes for you. They can give you their answer while resurrecting you.

You understand that's not accurate right? You have to if you play PLD at all; there's no way you're getting full dot potency when your dot is attached to your 3rd combo hit of your non enmity combo. By the time you've even applied the dot to your 3rd mob you're 19-20 seconds into the pull if you haven't done any flashes, and then of course the mobs are all over the place. Lets say you flash twice then start this, your first mob is only getting the dot 12 seconds in, and honestly if trash mobs are lasting long enough for full potency starting there, I've already ditched.

Based on the few situations where you're gated out of larger pulls, I lob to pull, Sheltron, Flash once on the gather, FoF, CoS, FB, Swipe, and RB on the primary target and then GB on either the second / third / fourth target. Lob + Flash + a FoF buffed CoS, FB, Swipe, and RB is more than enough enmity to hold your primary target unless you are under geared. Flash + a FoF buffed CoS + GB is more than enough to hold over moderate AoE DPS. If you have a summoner in the party you might need to be a bit more careful about your overall GCD budgeting and possibly flash again.

By the time they make their way to kill the second, third, and fourth targets, GB's DoT will have had plenty of time to tick. On 4+ targets PLD does start to fall behind but the difference is still not that large.

And like I said in my original post, I'm not saying PLD doesn't need some help. I'm saying just adding DPS to Flash so it's basically Unleash / Overpower is not a smart change because it only helps in very limited situations. Flash will still be completely useless in the large majority of situations. PLD already has enough situational garbage in their kit. They don't need more.

I'm not saying this is a good change but for example, if they added a 10% resistance down (probably way too high) that didn't stack with other effects like Storm's Eye, Disembowel, Dragon Kick, Trick Attack, or Foes then they'd buff the overall AoE DPS of a PLD party considerably and turn Flash into a staple skill that is usable in every situation.

[Reynhart]

It's just that these days they're too afraid to make dungeons anything but face roll.

It's risky to make dungeons really challenging if you intend people to do the same two once a day for 3 months...which is also the reason people want to save as much time as possible when doing them.