Fix paladin. Only Class in the entire game that cannot...

[Reynhart]

I will break it down even more clearly...

Ok, so let me break it down to you.
PLD with Shield Oath can easily keep enmity over any DPS and any other tank without their tank stance with Flash. If they use their tank stance without being hit, then they're just stupid.

So, instead of calculating over and over how much enmity can each tank build, why don't you focus on the real issue, which is PLD cannot kill groups of mob as fast as DRK and WAR ?
You know, this thing about damage, and not enmity...

Flash will be straight 600 "points" of enmity over and over.

You're still wrong...Flash is not 600 enmity. It's 600 potency, meaning it would build the same enmity as a 600 potency non-crit attack.
It it were 600 flat enmity, you realize that you wouldn't be able to keep enmity over BLM in AoE situation (Who can easily do more than 1200 damage, thus enmity, per GCD), right ?

[Daniolaut]

Ok, so let me break it down to you.
PLD with Shield Oath can easily keep enmity over any DPS and any other tank without their tank stance with Flash. If they use their tank stance without being hit, then they're just stupid.

So, instead of calculating over and over how much enmity can each tank build, why don't you focus on the real issue, which is PLD cannot kill groups of mob as fast as DRK and WAR ?
You know, this thing about damage, and not enmity...

I can agree to that.


But, my response to the person, was their specific situation where they said "you cant hit an enemy" but you still get threat from flash. I personally didnt go test if i could get more threat from an invulnerable enemy or not, so i dont know if he is actually correct or not, but my point was, its too situational to keep flash being terrible. Which it is, from my original statement, because its not doing damage.

Which was the entire point of this thread in the first place.

Read title "Only class in the entire game that cannot"

You, then replied to me, that paladin is always going to have 600 potency of enmity with flash. Which i then replied thats fine, but warrior can enhance overpower with berserk, maim, etc because it does damage, but paladin cannot enhance flash, and you kept going on about 600 points of enmity. *_*

You're still wrong...Flash is not 600 enmity. It's 600 potency, meaning it would build the same enmity as a 600 potency non-crit attack.
It it were 600 flat enmity, you realize that you wouldn't be able to keep enmity over BLM in AoE situation (Who can easily do more than 1200 damage, thus enmity, per GCD), right ?

Points of enmity, potency of enmity, whatever.

Youre saying its 600 whatevers of enmity right?

Non crit? You can finally agree?

Ok.

So when you use berserk, you get MORE enmity right? Or no. If you say no i'm done with you too.

So since flash doesnt do damage, and Fight or Flight specifically says "Increases damage by 30%" using fight or flight you do **not** gain more enmity from flash coupled with fight or flight.

If you disagree again, you must be trolling or something is seriously wrong.

So now that we should be able to agree, warrior and dark knight get an advantage because their area of effect enmity generation action, gets more threat or enmity or hate because it *can* do damage, thus any sensible dark knight and warrior, can hold threat easier than a paladin because paladin, again, cannot enhance its threat.

Also the enemies will be alive for longer, because flash cant do damage, yet again.

So enemies will be alive longer, and you will have less threat on these said longer living enemies.

So

with enmity

paladin is lacking.

[Launched]

More maths

If you're relying on crits to give you an enmity lead, you're doing something horribly wrong. Did you forget to turn on Shield Oath? Flash's enmity is way more than enough.

[Daniolaut]

If you're relying on crits to give you an enmity lead, you're doing something horribly wrong. Did you forget to turn on Shield Oath? Flash's enmity is way more than enough.

Yup now youre just trolling. I'm done. At least Reynhart responded with sensibility finally. **correction, he edited his post with more nonsense.**

Yes, it was.
It's exactly why this sentence I quoted for you :

is totally off-topic.

PLD does not sucks at enmity, it sucks at damage.

Seriously, why do you keep focusing on enmity ? The purpose of damage, when comparing tanks, is not the enmity it builds, it's the mob's HP it depletes...

I'm just going to say thank you for bumping my thread, and inform you I've included one of your posts in the original post stating you'd also like to see changes.

you should already be able to find these answers in your, mine and others previous posts within this thread.

[Reynhart]

Which was the entire point of this thread in the first place.

Yes, it was.
It's exactly why this sentence I quoted for you :

The reason Paladin/Gladiator pretty much sucks at keeping threat *in comparison* to warrior or dark knight at low levels, is because flash doesnt deal damage.

is totally off-topic.

PLD does not sucks at enmity, it sucks at damage.

So now that we should be able to agree, warrior and dark knight get an advantage because their area of effect enmity generation action, gets more threat or enmity or hate because it *can* do damage, thus any sensible dark knight and warrior, can hold threat easier than a paladin because paladin, again, cannot enhance its threat.

Seriously, why do you keep focusing on enmity ? The purpose of damage, when comparing tanks, is not the enmity it builds, it's the mob's HP it depletes...

[Brian_]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

The game is not balanced around the player's tendency to pull everything they can and AoE it down. That is a play style we have adopted and one SE has tried to stop. Situations where your AoE DPS on huge packs of mobs really matters are rare. And no, shaving a minute off the speed of your EX dungeon run doesn't qualify as mattering to me.

When looking at smaller pulls of 3 mobs, a pretty standard size for dungeons / raids, a PLD's multi-target DPS is actually on par with WAR and DRK. In that situation, adding damage to Flash does nothing. Giving them the equivalent of their own Overpower or Unleash does nothing.

So if you want to deal with the issue, rather than giving PLD another niche ability that only shines in one situation, I'd rather we actually get an intelligent and sensible change, not some sentimental war drum BS or some envy fueled copy of WAR or DRK abilities.

[Alistaire]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

The game is not balanced around the player's tendency to pull everything they can and AoE it down.

Saying it doesn't make it true. We have aoe abilities for a reason. Even @ 3 mobs every job does better dps aoe'ing. You don't need a massive start to finish pull like you can do in some places for aoe to be significant, and PLD still lacks in that.

[Brannigan]

I'm fine without significant AOE. In raids, AOE is rarely all that useful or required. For dungeons, you can sustain yourself with Clemency so the healers can AOE.

[Brian_]

Saying it doesn't make it true. We have aoe abilities for a reason. Even @ 3 mobs every job does better dps aoe'ing. You don't need a massive start to finish pull like you can do in some places for aoe to be significant, and PLD still lacks in that.

Except it is true. Being ignorant doesn't make it not true.

@3 mobs, PLD can multi DoT with GB without clipping for 340 ppgcd. Overpower is 360 ppgcd, Unleash is 300 ppgcd, and AD is 360 ppgcd.

If you compare the three tanks @3 targets, the difference is not that large.

[Alistaire]

I'm fine without significant AOE. In raids, AOE is rarely all that useful or required. For dungeons, you can sustain yourself with Clemency so the healers can AOE.

PLDs who use clemency in dungeons are the worst. Bad enough you have no aoe dps but you think stopping any dps you have is helping. smh and no joke, I have kicked paladins for refusing to stop doing that.