Fix paladin. Only Class in the entire game that cannot...

[Reynhart]

That's exactly what you're doing when you're stopping primals, killing Nidhogg, destroying Ishgard's corrupt religion, delivering food, and sniffing chocobos.

Then every job is a true knight ? No wonder some people feel that PLD lacks proper identity.

[Archaell]

Then every job is a true knight ? No wonder some people feel that PLD lacks proper identity.

As The Honest Grey Knight, I have to say that the game is definitely forcing everyone to be the white knight by the lack of anti-heroic choices, which might be creating problems for our paladin identity.

[Reynhart]

As The Honest Grey Knight, I have to say that the game is definitely forcing everyone to be the white knight by the lack of anti-heroic choices, which might be creating problems for our paladin identity.

I personally don't feel like the MSQ is really ripping our PLD identity.
However, the "fighting for your friend is your true strength" and "innocents should be protected from the corruption" of WAR and DRK storyline totally do !
Without even dealing about what PLD's identity should be, gameplay wise, which was also mostly denied.

[Archaell]

Gameplay wise I think that paladin should have been the support tank - focused on party buffing. Skills like the battle litany, mantra or even speed from the fairy would make sense for the job. Having the elite guard background paladins most likely end up in the position of leadership and motivation based skills would be awesome job identity... unfortunately it is not the case and we are the "defensive" tank instead.

[Reynhart]

Gameplay wise I think that paladin should have been the support tank - focused on party buffing.

For me, as a "Main tank" it should have focused its survival on healing, being the only tank that requires knowledge in magic, and as an "Off tank", on covering people in time of need.
Two things that are severely downplayed.

A blunt idea that could have been interesting is allowing Rampart and Sentinel to be used on a target. Maybe the enhanced version would only apply when used on you, to not be too powerful. And Cover made into a trait triggered by critical HP and proximity.

[Daniolaut]

Personally i dont feel paladin has an identity crisis.

I feel Paladin lacks skills with which to perform one the two absolute requirements this game demands. (job wise) Black Mage got a buff to do more damage to take into consideration it needs to move, Paladin should get an adjustment considering it cant effectively be a tank and deal damage to any real degree in a multiple mob situation at the same time.

"Movement"

"Damage"


The entire battle system is based around these two things, one of which Paladin lacks to ability to do with flash entirely, which currently it stands as its sole area of effect enmity generation.

You CAN single target in a multiple enemy situation, but lets be realistic, everyone wants to do speed runs and everyone wants to do massive damage.

I'm not asking for paladin to do more damage than warrior, i'm asking it actually do damage with a single area of effect attack.

Updated original post:


PLD level 8
***War Drum***
Spell:
Delivers an attack with your shield at a potency of 90 (or 100) to all nearby enemies.
Additional Effect: Increased Enmity
Cast: instant
Recast: (weaponskill time)
MP: (707 at level 60)
Range 0y
Radius 5y

PLD level 50
***Flash***
Spell:
Delivers blinding light damage with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies
Additional effect: Increased enmity
Additional effect: Damage over time Potency 30 Duration: 15s
Additional effect: Blind Duration 12s
Cast: Instant
Recast 25.00s
Range 0y
Radius 5y


Effectively switching the effects of Circle of Scorn and Flash, but changing Circle of Scorn to War Drum.

I feel this would make paladin more fun to play, as flash would be more situational and encouraged to time (because of the blind)

While also giving Paladin a fun ability again, to allow it to keep threat and deal damage. The animation for Circle of Scorn doesnt even make sense to me personally.




Black mage received a change because of turn 9, due to its supposed high demand of movement, and the jobs ability to do damage based upon that demand..

Paladin should get a change because flash does absolutely 0 damage and its paladins sole, singular, area of effect enmity generation. There is circle of scorn, but thats like saying black mage has scathe, and scathe should be its main source of damage in turn 9. Which is absurd. Dont go there.

[Lan_Mantear]

Just modify Clemency. Lower the MP Cost similar to a whm's Cure 1 or Cure 2 spell, and give it additional effect: enmity. That way you can use your other tools to generate initial hate, then use Clemency for upkeep.

[Shurrikhan]

And where, exactly, are you getting this identity? Because in my playing Paladin (and my tireless examination of it), that's not the identity I picked up. ...


...So you're saying that the established identity of Paladins is the one who leads the charge, but then you're saying their best position in a raid comp is as OT beside a DRK? That seems a bit inconsistent (which makes sense, because the Paladin toolkit itself is very schizophrenic; we are most performant when we are not "leading the charge", but our shield, its mechanics, and our cooldowns supposedly make us best suited to do exactly that).

Just to summarize my thoughts on this three-page argument that started here:

Our purpose as a free Paladin is allegedly to defend the innocent, lead the charge, and protect our allies. However, every one of our skills (at the very least up to 50) comes directly from the <not free> Sultansworn Paladins. Our only difference is we took this knowledge meant to use within that particular group, a glorified royal guard, and can now use it... freely. That does not mean that the skills themselves have ever necessarily be designed for that new purpose. Lore says we should do all that, but it doesn't necessarily say we're thereby equipped to do so — only that we have managed well enough, when we aren't busy talking about our pride, feigning death, or pursuing legendary swords.

tldr; in some cases here, our lore and the job's lore are not one and the same. But our skills are the job's, whatever new purpose we may attempt to assign them to.

YES. I like this as either an automatic thing or as an oGCD proc on damage taken (with a 1-sec internal CD). Make it so you can either counterattack one enemy for 100 potency, or slash all enemies in front of you for 60 potency apiece in response to a successful block/parry/dodge.

I'd hope it'd be more interesting than merely that execution, but, yes, something to that effect. I was imagining something more like attacks against you that are <sufficiently> mitigated (see suggested change) can be automatically deflected into an enemy based on positioning, or may cause your currently queued attack to go off early — adding to skill-cap as a PLD is able to potentially just about double their attack speed by swapping between attacking targets based on immediacy of their next strike. Something that feels like more than just a Shield Swipe A and B.

This would add some nice utility, but I'm genuinely curious as to how they'd be able to code for this (since MT isn't a hard-coded thing). Maybe tie it to the top of the enmity table?

I meant it indirectly. As the accuracy reduction from Flash would increase their chance of being blocked, dodged, or parried, it could indirectly increase counter-attack damage done by their target(s).

I believe it's been suggested before, but Tempered Will could be modified to fit this role pretty well. If they reduced the cooldown to say 120s and made it so players could dodge, parry, and block incoming attacks as well as avoid interruption, it would be very useful. They could also add a component where blocking has a 10% chance to reset the cooldown.

In regards to Clemency causing the Paladin to take unintended increased damage by being unable to block, dodge, or parry during the cast time, I think Tempered Will would be a poor solution. Paladin cast animations themselves occurs with the shield held forward, and as such I believe it would make sense if blocking at least were still available during the cast time. The lack of all RNG mitigation during the cast time noticeably impacts its self-use or "MT" value, especially during effects such as Bulwark or (correct me if I'm wrong -- Featherfoot vs. magic damage debate v2) Flash. I don't especially care what is done to balance that out, but unless it really is specifically meant to be used primarily just for support, it seems to suffer from oversights.

That said, as a way to prep for heavy attacks however, atop or in place of possible RNG mitigation, I too would like to see Tempered Will grant interruption immunity throughout the duration. However, I'd rather not see added RNG dependence on what would then be such a valuable tool, especially for those fights in which you cannot block or parry the attacks anyways (caster bosses).

I'd also like to see a GLD skill that turns Parry into Block Rate. If we have a shield, it doesn't make sense for us to stop an attack with our sword.

While it would make plenty of sense in a real life setting, albeit less frequently used except to wind and counter through the better control of the cross (unless your shield is somehow capable of similar control due to whatever shape it may have (?)), it does indeed make little sense so long as the options are mutually exclusive and the shield superior in throughput and opportunities for following actions. To be clear, the sword is generally unnecessary for covering more of your body; your stance matches your shield type — squared off only if your shield is large enough to accommodate it, while having one foot forward as we do ingame if not necessarily so. Your shield should cover the whole of your facing, whether statically (as with a tower) or actively (as with a buckler). ...If anything, I just wonder why our bucklers aren't held out in front of us with the sword resting against it, fully at the ready while giving both arms' worth of strength in a deflection...

The solution seems simple though: just rename "Parry" to "Guard", which would then happen to affect the shield instead for Gladiator/Paladin.
Or, RNG mitigation types do not remain mutually exclusive, it'd give whatever combination of the two would seem optimal (until later changes, this would probably still be purely the shield).
Or you replace the RNG and anti-physical niche-ing outright and just give it added Def/mDef.

Just modify Clemency. Lower the MP Cost similar to a whm's Cure 1 or Cure 2 spell, and give it additional effect: enmity. That way you can use your other tools to generate initial hate, then use Clemency for upkeep.

If I recall correctly, Clemency's enmity is already affected by Shield Oath. A single Conv-Clemency overheal Crit has held enmity for some 10 seconds or more for me while waiting for mobs to gather. As an overheal, it's more GCD-efficient for enmity than Flash, even if by no means more mana-efficient, and it has unlimited range, so long as the enemies you want to attract are already on your enemy list. Also, the MP cost is the only thing that keeps a PLD from having massively more healing per minute than a DRK or WAR.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Why effectively remove Flash, only to then bake it into Circle of Scorn? You're changing Flash to a physical Unleash, and then giving CoS a blind. Why though?

Additionally, a couple points of interest: Right now every PLD oGCD does identical maximum single-target dps over time. That seems very intentional, even if not especially important, on SE's part. This would break that, and I'm not sure for what benefit.
How? Because of the real point here: Blind = mitigation = healer dps. Potentially.

Flash's real concerns, in my opinion are simply these:
- Too many enemies are immune it its effects.
- It cannot stack.

Both can be fixed, though both may require something slightly new coding-wise to remain balanced, and the latter may require an element of compromise.
- If Blind were to work on everything, the potential % accuracy decrease could serve alike to an on-demand Dark Arts - Dark Dance. This would be overpowered when that could potentially save some 12k health. Especially when you consider that your only other way of generating that health, Clemency, would have cost you RNG mitigation during its cast and would take up almost half your mana. Alternatively, when incoming damage is quite low, the added healer dps uptime it may cause might not be worth even a single Fast Blade. As such, the blind needs to aim for a potency-equivalent level of accuracy reduction. In other words, the stronger you get compared to the enemy, the stronger the Blind gets. Your GCDs lost on Flash over time should have fairly obvious returns in the form of healer dps or stance-dancing. -- I believe this system would have benefits game-wide.
- The second issue is that Flash gains no benefit for being used before the duration fades completely, as not to lose maximum debuff uptime over the diminishing returns, whereas its competing tank AoEs can be spammed. This doesn't mean that it needs to be scrapped and replaced with yet another damage AoE. It just needs to have the ability to be burst as needed similarly to the others without having counter-synergy, lest the theoretical strength of the ability (without that counter-synergy) be too strong as to balance for these more practical uses. To that end, it needs to be able to either add effect (e.g. flat accuracy reduction, where the enemy's base accuracy increases as you get into more serious content, making a lesser % effect in later tiers assuming the same player strength), or duration (while the initial effect is increased and more standardized but the duration is dependent on enemy strength). -- I believe both of these systems, too, will need to be added eventually into the game.

And there you have a Flash that remains Flash, unique, a tankily tank AoE, while meeting those "absolute needs".

For me, as a "Main tank" it should have focused its survival on healing, being the only tank that requires knowledge in magic, and as an "Off tank", on covering people in time of need.
Two things that are severely downplayed.

A blunt idea that could have been interesting is allowing Rampart and Sentinel to be used on a target. Maybe the enhanced version would only apply when used on you, to not be too powerful. And Cover made into a trait triggered by critical HP and proximity.

What difference does it make whether you Rampart someone else or take the blow yourself with Rampart active, except that you have more base mitigation that most and would have access to the enhanced versions. Sure, we'd potentially want something for when Provoke or Cover are down, but I for one would rather then see our snap-tanking capabilities improved rather than going a SCH-ish route of saving people from afar. Generally speaking.

I still do feel a little peeved that Shelltron neither covers allies behind you, nor (in the form of something like "Aegis Boon" instead) can it be cast on others for a more direct shield. (Which would be SCH af, so I accept all accusations of hypocrisy.)

[ADVSS]

That ast bubble, where youre immobile, why doesnt paladin have something that keeps them in place reduces damage recieved and reflects damage with a generous enmity mod like vengeance, i mean something like that screams defensive tank. even in parts of speed runs youll be standing there holding 10- a billion enemies for the dps to burn down, have it deactivate the same way

Tempered Will actually sounds like it could do this, prevent knockback like youre so stern planting yourself in defense that enemies attacking you hurt themselves by doing so....
This could probably be op though , as maybe as an ot utility for fights like titan or living liquid the allies stacked in the bubble could also have knockback prevented for the duration its up...man that sounds really good actually...