Fix paladin. Only Class in the entire game that cannot...

[Shurrikhan]

This is starting to sound like the stack-parry argument. Thinking that Clemency is keeping your healer in Cleric is a hypothetical. your healers DPS output depends 99% on that player, 0.9% on the weather, and 0.1% on you. Healing I've got a set opening DPS rotation and stance dance that either used or not. You Clemency mid-fight is hardly going to factor, more-so now than 2.x with Tetegration and Essential Dig. At worst you are going to have me waste it and at best I'll toss an Aspected Benefit / Regen refresh / Adlo that I otherwise would have not.

If you were:
1. ONLY doing AoE
2. Your healer had significantly better AoE than you
3. Your stacking parry saved more healer dps than it cost you

Then yes, stacking parry would be good. But, we don't only AoE, and at 3 mobs or less we do fine off GB rotations, and parry just does not scale well enough to have those effects.

I'd personally call it practical rather than hypothetical because it occurs for me, consistently if not identically, in the vast majority of my Expert roulette runs, from both PLD and AST/WHM perspectives. AS a PLD, if I would have needed a buffed Aspected Benefic shield, a swap to Aspected Benefic regen, ED, and then three Benefic IIs and another Aspected Benefic regen over the course of the fight, I can forgo two or all of the Benefic IIs with two Clemency casts, allowing for two additional Gravity casts. This happens identically, given similar healer ilvls and my using the same CDs in the same pull, across multiple healers. The only time I see truly different results are with a SCH, in which case we may choose not to pure AoE, and I tend to use Clemency only as he needs to reset DoTs for Bane. Otherwise, since much of the SCH's dps is already tied up in his pet (essentially regen but without the front-loading), I'll often get better results GBing key targets and reducing damage taken over the course of the pull through successive kills. TP and MP are obviously additional factors. I'm not saying Clemency heals = Healer dps stands as a rule of thumb, but it is my primary finding across hundreds of runs if one plays to the finer factors involved.

[SyzzleSpark]

Did we all somehow magically forget in an AoE tanking scenario Clemency is extremely likely to get interrupted after maybe 1 or 2 casts allowed by Holy stuns, during which, because of the stun, you're not taking enough damage to warrant Clemency anyway? o.O

[Lyth]

To be perfectly fair, there's usually a few situations each raid tier where an enterprising tank can pop an AoE move for few GCDs in order to gain a nice dps boost. That's not to mention the fact that AoE heavy fights (T4/A2S) do pop up every now and then.

I wouldn't begrudge an AoE dps move on PLD. Are there any bigger priorities for PLD's kit at the moment? Aside from possibly a TP generation skill, I can't really think of any other significant deficiencies. DPS can always be fine-tuned through potency numbers.

What baffles me, however, is the staunch insistence that PLD get an MP based AoE dps move. I understand that PLDs run into TP issues in longer fights. But that's because we actually use TP. The solution is to adjust TP management.

The problem with tying skills to MP on PLD is that it just sits there. Skills like Clemency and Stoneskin use it, but their cast times are the main restriction. Your stances use it, but the GCD activation means that you're not flipping back and forth between the stances frivolously. The role of MP on PLD is historical/lore-based, at best. It isn't really a job mechanic.

You often find yourself sitting on max MP for large portions of a fight, especially in single target. It would be different if you had more skills which used MP and you were actually required to use them at set intervals. For example, if your oGCDs, like CoS, SW, and FoF (perhaps even a few defensive cooldowns) cost you MP, then you could actually talk about "MP management". At the moment, about the worst that you can do to yourself is lock yourself in ShO after overzealous flash spam (or SwO, but I'm not sure why you'd be spamming Flash from full MP down to zero MP without the benefit of your tank stance enmity multiplier).

An alternative approach could be to give PLD a TP restoration ability which costs MP. Then you could try to create a balancing act between offensive physical attacks which cost TP, against support-based and defensive abilities which cost MP. (i.e. Decision-making along similar lines to "Do I Energy Drain with this Aetherflow stack, or do I use it on a Lustrate or Sacred Soil?")

If you want an AoE move which does dps and costs MP, you have to first solve the underlying problem of making MP meaningful on PLD. That way, you make the job into a fun and engaging gameplay experience.

[ADVSS]

If you want an AoE move which does dps and costs MP, you have to first solve the underlying problem of making MP meaningful on PLD. That way, you make the job into a fun and engaging gameplay experience.

I agree, the only issue is, if mp management becomes a pld mechanic, well there goes the DRK=PLD jokes, if it becomes an issue of TP it becomes warrior lite. Maybe have the aoe cost tp, balance it with a cooldown like convert ---> 20% MP for 20% TP or a spell that restores TP over time?

EDIT:exactly what you suggested, sorry.

[Kitfox]

What baffles me, however, is the staunch insistence that PLD get an MP based AoE dps move. I understand that PLDs run into TP issues in longer fights. But that's because we actually use TP. The solution is to adjust TP management...
...If you want an AoE move which does dps and costs MP, you have to first solve the underlying problem of making MP meaningful on PLD. That way, you make the job into a fun and engaging gameplay experience.

Yes, we all want a fun and engaging class but even more than that, I should think we want a balanced class. People arguing for a simple MP AoE damage ability, at least in my case, just want to fix the class as soon as possible, before they go on to make major overhauls of the whole class. Boring and balanced is still better than boring and imbalanced. Also, some people just prefer the way PLD works currently and wouldn't want major changes.

MP based AoE might not be the most engaging option in the current design, but at least it would work and be in line with the output of other tanks. Any other option would require multiple changes to the class and be a much larger balancing operation. I think it's a perfectly reasonable stance go for a simple fix instead of a complicated one.

[ErdrickLoto]

Yes, we all want a fun and engaging class but even more than that, I should think we want a balanced class. People arguing for a simple MP AoE damage ability, at least in my case, just want to fix the class as soon as possible, before they go on to make major overhauls of the whole class. Boring and balanced is still better than boring and imbalanced. Also, some people just prefer the way PLD works currently and wouldn't want major changes.

An MP-based AoE on PLD is not "boring and balanced". The WAR AoE costs 130 TP - a fair amount, though WAR has good TP regeneration from what I know. DRK's AoE uses MP, because being an MP-based physical class is DRK's schtick. PLD barely uses its MP, so an MP-based AoE would be an absurd boon for it.

...I'm not sure how "TP-based AoE" would be a complicated fix, either.

[Daniolaut]

Updated original post to reflect everything thats been said so far.

From our mostly clear ability to agree that its needs to be fixed.

but also our obvious inability to agree on how to fix it.

[Kitfox]

An MP-based AoE on PLD is not "boring and balanced". The WAR AoE costs 130 TP - a fair amount, though WAR has good TP regeneration from what I know. DRK's AoE uses MP, because being an MP-based physical class is DRK's schtick. PLD barely uses its MP, so an MP-based AoE would be an absurd boon for it.

...I'm not sure how "TP-based AoE" would be a complicated fix, either.

Of course it would be a boon. Because PLD needs one for AoE dmg. Hasn't this been clear throughout the whole thread? A boon is well justified. 60-100 potency AoE is not absurd at all. It wouldn't change PLD gameplay at all except for against 4+ or 5+ enemies depending on the potency they went with.

[Brannigan]

Regular monsters will never interrupt a paladin unless you get hit by a telegraphed special attack. Even then, maybe not.

[SyzzleSpark]

Regular monsters will never interrupt a paladin unless you get hit by a telegraphed special attack. Even then, maybe not.

Maybe if you only pull a single pack. Pull even two packs and the combined damage will interrupt you. And if we're talking about letting your healer have sick AoE deeps you'd want more than 1 pack... and also, I reiterate, I dunno why/how you'd be taking enough damage from 3 mobs to warrant the casting of a 1200 potency heal.

You'd be better off popping one of those cooldown things, allowing both the healer AND yourself to DPS.