Fix paladin. Only Class in the entire game that cannot...

[Brian_]

PLDs who use clemency in dungeons are the worst. Bad enough you have no aoe dps but you think stopping any dps you have is helping. smh and no joke, I have kicked paladins for refusing to stop doing that.

Except if you have a WHM, they can spam holy from start to finish of a massive pull and out DPS actual DPS and you will not die even if they don't spend a single cast healing you.

[Alistaire]

Except if you have a WHM, they can spam holy from start to finish of a massive pull and out DPS actual DPS and you will not die even if they don't spend a single cast healing you.

Way to hot potato the argument. In a massive pull yes, if a whm is dps'ing and you actually need to self-cure, go for it. But ya know what? Neither other tank has that issue because they actually contribute to dps in those situations. Also newsflash: holy stuns mobs. If you wait for those stuns to become noneffective, then properly use your cooldowns, you'll find you can keep dps'ing instead of playing healer.

Back to what was being talked about, 3 mob pulls:

@3 mobs, PLD can multi DoT with GB without clipping for 340 ppgcd. Overpower is 360 ppgcd, Unleash is 300 ppgcd, and AD is 360 ppgcd.

You understand that's not accurate right? You have to if you play PLD at all; there's no way you're getting full dot potency when your dot is attached to your 3rd combo hit of your non enmity combo. By the time you've even applied the dot to your 3rd mob you're 19-20 seconds into the pull if you haven't done any flashes, and then of course the mobs are all over the place. Lets say you flash twice then start this, your first mob is only getting the dot 12 seconds in, and honestly if trash mobs are lasting long enough for full potency starting there, I've already ditched.

And then 4+ mob pulls you significantly fall behind even by your messed up calculations. If a person was always right based on the idea of presenting some numbers nobody'd ever fail a math test.

WHY?! you do realize healing magic contributes to enmity right? Clemency is like the most fun PLD can have...

Oh the days in xi with paladins and their max hp sets for this.

[ADVSS]

Oh the days in xi with paladins and their max hp sets for this.

That bad huh? never played 11 but I feel like that was a bad strat.

[Brian_]

Way to hot potato the argument. In a massive pull yes, if a whm is dps'ing and you actually need to self-cure, go for it. But ya know what? Neither other tank has that issue because they actually contribute to dps in those situations. Also newsflash: holy stuns mobs. If you wait for those stuns to become noneffective, then properly use your cooldowns, you'll find you can keep dps'ing instead of playing healer.

The other tanks contribute DPS but neither has the self sustain of a PLD so they still need healer care. Including properly executed holy stunning, a PLD can survive even the largest pulls for 30+ seconds without needing a single heal. Try asking your healer to not heal you for 30+ seconds as a WAR or DRK and see how that goes for you. They can give you their answer while resurrecting you.

You understand that's not accurate right? You have to if you play PLD at all; there's no way you're getting full dot potency when your dot is attached to your 3rd combo hit of your non enmity combo. By the time you've even applied the dot to your 3rd mob you're 19-20 seconds into the pull if you haven't done any flashes, and then of course the mobs are all over the place. Lets say you flash twice then start this, your first mob is only getting the dot 12 seconds in, and honestly if trash mobs are lasting long enough for full potency starting there, I've already ditched.

Based on the few situations where you're gated out of larger pulls, I lob to pull, Sheltron, Flash once on the gather, FoF, CoS, FB, Swipe, and RB on the primary target and then GB on either the second / third / fourth target. Lob + Flash + a FoF buffed CoS, FB, Swipe, and RB is more than enough enmity to hold your primary target unless you are under geared. Flash + a FoF buffed CoS + GB is more than enough to hold over moderate AoE DPS. If you have a summoner in the party you might need to be a bit more careful about your overall GCD budgeting and possibly flash again.

By the time they make their way to kill the second, third, and fourth targets, GB's DoT will have had plenty of time to tick. On 4+ targets PLD does start to fall behind but the difference is still not that large.

And like I said in my original post, I'm not saying PLD doesn't need some help. I'm saying just adding DPS to Flash so it's basically Unleash / Overpower is not a smart change because it only helps in very limited situations. Flash will still be completely useless in the large majority of situations. PLD already has enough situational garbage in their kit. They don't need more.

I'm not saying this is a good change but for example, if they added a 10% resistance down (probably way too high) that didn't stack with other effects like Storm's Eye, Disembowel, Dragon Kick, Trick Attack, or Foes then they'd buff the overall AoE DPS of a PLD party considerably and turn Flash into a staple skill that is usable in every situation.

[ADVSS]

PLDs who use clemency in dungeons are the worst. Bad enough you have no aoe dps but you think stopping any dps you have is helping. smh and no joke, I have kicked paladins for refusing to stop doing that.

WHY?! you do realize healing magic contributes to enmity right? Clemency is like the most fun PLD can have...

[Shurrikhan]

PLDs who use clemency in dungeons are the worst. Bad enough you have no aoe dps but you think stopping any dps you have is helping. smh and no joke, I have kicked paladins for refusing to stop doing that.

This is beyond foolish.

Consider the potency that can be done in one PLD GCD against the potency than can be done in whatever Healer GCDs that Clemency affords. Barring counter-synergy with Bulwark, you'd be hard pressed for Clemency not to be worthwhile in any 3+ mobs AoE pull, especially when the alternative would have only been to waste Blind DRs for the same enmity without any healing.

In single-target, during Clemency, with a 2.42 GCD or less, it fills basically the same function that Shield Swipe did before becoming an ability; it keeps you from wasting a tick of Riot Blade. During Convalescence, especially, with a HoT already placed at the start and to be placed at the tail, this becomes more than just viable. The loss is less than 200 potency, and if it allows a single extra Malefic II or Stone III, is quickly balanced out. You'd be hard pressed for a heal of 10k+ not to be worth that. And unless the Paladin needs to save someone with it later, the mana cost is insignificant.

Tldr; if the healer can AoE and it's not interrupting the PLD rotations, it's neutral at worst.

[zuzu-bq]

PLDs who use clemency in dungeons are the worst. Bad enough you have no aoe dps but you think stopping any dps you have is helping. smh and no joke, I have kicked paladins for refusing to stop doing that.

My healer's AoE GCD Spell is stronger than any GCD I can make as a PLD. Why not Clemency for the sake of group damage? You're just prioritizing personal damage over raid damage now. Like Shurrikhan said, this is indeed beyond foolish.

An MP-based AoE on PLD is not "boring and balanced". The WAR AoE costs 130 TP - a fair amount, though WAR has good TP regeneration from what I know. DRK's AoE uses MP, because being an MP-based physical class is DRK's schtick. PLD barely uses its MP, so an MP-based AoE would be an absurd boon for it.

Hmm... not if you tone it on a really small potency like something between 30~50 and make it inside Flash Trait so WARs can't abuse from it. Wouldn't be game changing, wouldn't be bad and wouldn't be strong either. I fasilt to see how your argument justify this as absurd. Like really, the best option for PLD aoe today is spam Goring on multiple targets.

[Xenosan]

This is starting to sound like the stack-parry argument. Thinking that Clemency is keeping your healer in Cleric is a hypothetical. your healers DPS output depends 99% on that player, 0.9% on the weather, and 0.1% on you. Healing I've got a set opening DPS rotation and stance dance that either used or not. You Clemency mid-fight is hardly going to factor, more-so now than 2.x with Tetegration and Essential Dig. At worst you are going to have me waste it and at best I'll toss an Aspected Benefit / Regen refresh / Adlo that I otherwise would have not.

Not implying Clemency doesn't have a purpose, is bad, or that there aren't times it's worth using mid-fight, but toss this garbage idea that you somehow boosting healer DPS numbers that other healers in DRK/WAR groups will not achieve. Shenanigans. This isn't a case of PLD toolkit having an alternate route that DRK/WAR do not, they simply lack. It's been known for 3+ years. Whats this attempted spin?

AOE is niche or over-rated, seriously what game you playing? Most recent activity the game introduced is YOKAI and POTD. But yep forget AOE, who needs that. Shouting Clemency doesn't reinforce you point, it argues the contrary.

Though I would admit that PLD getting an AOE at level 62 or whenever comes about 52 levels too late, when it would have been more valued during the early leveling process and not post HW. But that is why with 4.0 what I'm curious about is how they implement new abilities. Will it be like HW, lvls 62,64,etc or will they be implemented at lower levels. They say that 4.0 won't require HW, does that imply not requiring lvl60 either? IDK.

[ADVSS]

is Heavensward really not going to be required for this new expansion? I wonder if theyd keep the jobs locked in ishgard, then