It’s also all but a given that the expansion will include at least two new jobs.

[Risvertasashi]

I think youre on to something quite crucial to what ive been saying about HW but the design for the most part for the new job abilities, for both, is to make them more like the other, to me. Maybe im the only one that sees this, maybe im crazy but again, it isnt our decision it was the dev teams to do so.

No you're exactly correct... this was discussed back when the info first came out, but months before we actually had HW. It was... lightly controversial, but pretty obvious they were making WHM and SCH less of a complement and more independent of each other, in preparation for a new healer. (We didn't know it would be so embarrassingly parallel to WHM, though).

Although we did know of dissipation... We also didn't know they were going to nerf the fairy so brutally. I think it's pretty clear the dev team isn't/wasn't happy with the advantages of having an extra entity that can independently heal... just as they didn't like lustrate in cleric stance. (Well... from how they handle SMN, I don't think SE really likes the pet part of pet jobs in general).

All that said, SCH still has quite the different toolkit. I guess... are you saying that in 4.0, you think they'll bring them even closer together?

[Duelle]

(Correct me if I'm wrong) I assume SCHs roll is DPS while heals are going off, mixed with shields for tank/party busters, correct? Then the part highlighted I feel isnt completely accurate. In the example of HoTs, simply applying HoTs in place of a fairy alone can be quite similar, even more so if off the GCD. Ticking away at an equal amount, while you keep the DPS up. Next would be dmg mitigations, which plenty can be made since SCH only has 2 forms atm. As for the other examples you gave, I feel they are not quite detailed enough for me to give examples of how to make them fit, as I don't want to just assume what you mean by them.

From my own experience playing the job and looking at how it's used, the shields are pretty damn powerful at mitigating mechanics. Someone in my Green Mage thread brought up the fact that some boss fights are tuned to deal a ton of damage because they take SCH shields in mind. I can also point to the comic delineating the power of crit Adlos + Deployment Tactics. That and the fact that I've seen topics lead to a discussion of creating another barrier healer to compete with SCH instead of letting said new healer be their own thing. All these point to the same problem, with the same name always popping up.

This said, what I was talking about was healers designed around different styles of healing. Unsurprisingly, I often mention examples seen in WoW or SWTOR, which showed a level of variety without one particular healer truly getting a guaranteed spot for groups. Merc Bounty Hunters in SWTOR used to combine attacks with healing abilities with a stack mechanic for certain skills. WoW has burst/single target healers via holy paladins, AoE/smart healers with resto shaman, HoT healers with resto druids and so on. Each has their own approach to healing while having different playstyles and priorities along with some (understandable) overlaps.

AST could have followed this line of thinking to differentiate itself from WHM and SCH, but because the devs realized that they were stuck with a two-healer meta based around specific heals/utility, it ended up as it currently is.

[Supersun]

Each has their own approach to healing while having different playstyles and priorities along with some (understandable) overlaps.

Simply from the perspective of designing content it's a lot easier if they have some base line expectation of what each role is able to bring to each fight. Variety is nice and all, but if you are making classes diverse simply for the sake of diversity and not keeping in mind how content is designed certain classes just become worthless for certain types of content.

Boss with a ton of tank busters and spike damage? Well, that DoT healer is useless.
Boss mainly focus on the tank so long as people can dodge effectively? Well that AoE healer is not the best.
The Vault? Hope you aren't that single target healer.

Designing different types of healers and expecting any combination of them to be able to clear the hardest content simply isn't going to work unless you essentially make all healers nearly the same with different glowy effects.

You are right that some attacks do take in mind that Scholar has shields, but that's the point, they design content based on what each role brings to the table, but rather than giving every healer like White Mage those shields I think it would be better if the main healer and off healer roles are divided up and jobs are created to fill either of the roles. The next healer then can be an offhealer like Scholar that's job is to mitigate big hits, and it doesn't have to be done with shields either. Anything that increases the effective HP pool in theory should work and there are a number of ways to do that. Increasing the tanks damage reduction or lowering the monster's damage both also could work in substitute of damage shields. I mean heck, you could even do weird things like a buff that reduced the monster's damage by 50% on the tank, but then the tank gets an unremovable DoT that inflicts the remaining 50% over time.

There are plenty of ways to add diversity, but they have to be designed with roles in mind, but trying to design it so that every healer can fill every role will likely end up as a disaster as either all healers essentially become the same, or certain healers aren't used or only one or 2 healers are used because they are just better than the other ones.

[ADVSS]

Although we did know of dissipation... We also didn't know they were going to nerf the fairy so brutally. I think it's pretty clear the dev team isn't/wasn't happy with the advantages of having an extra entity that can independently heal... just as they didn't like lustrate in cleric stance. (Well... from how they handle SMN, I don't think SE really likes the pet part of pet jobs in general).

All that said, SCH still has quite the different toolkit. I guess... are you saying that in 4.0, you think they'll bring them even closer together?

Hard to tell, yoshi did mention he wanted jobs to shine in a more unique manner instead of trying to make them all have the same timers and such, which would lead to them trying to keep scholars identity, but then they do mention not being pleased about sch and war being good, which i think worries us the most that. Seemingly, a big part of the argument is the fairies free heals that cost no mp, they could do things to restrict the uptime of the fairy, or put a darkside effect while its out, or they could strengthen the refresh abilities of whm and ast to bring them on a more level playing field.

EDIT: After thinking about your question, I think yes, they will try bring scholar more to that level,
Dissipation, I think was added intentionally, as an experiment. I can easilly see them marginalizing the use of fairies, at the sacrifice of healing magic potencies for the sch, while when dropping the fairy the potencies will go back up. Add in some nasty tank buster damage, or whatever they will to make sch pressured to drop the fairy for burst on demand, something like this. I have crazier ideas depending on how much of a criminal they believe the fairy is, i just hope they dont get implemented.

sorry for the delay in response had to go to work.

[Gemina]

The only reason AST could not be designed to stand on its own two feet was because the devs wanted to stick to the two-healer meta they created for ARR. Problem is that doesn't work because your healer slots are very specific, which means any of the other approaches to healing (HoTs, transfusions, damage converted to heals, smart heals, etc) compete only with WHM and not with SCH. Thus you can't design a healer around any of the available approaches because instead of encouraging all sorts of combos, you end up with SCH+<insert other healer>.

If they wanted to keep the two healer meta, it is likely because it was balanced and introducing another healer would be difficult. I believe the devs had the best intentions with having different combinations of healers. It just didn't work out that way. Again, don't blame SCH for this. Or blame both SCH and WHM.

Limiting the game to only two healers is crazier. Growth comes from variety, and this game can always use more of it when it comes to job classes.

If the design doesn't work with new additions to the healer roster, you change the design to make additions possible. This isn't a single-player game that has a finite development cycle, but an MMO that by nature continuously grows and adds things, and the design has to reflect and support those principles.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they should never add new jobs, and I am definitely not saying the game should remain in it's current state and never adapt. But there are other principles at play than just growth and adaptation. There is also a foundation from which the game and all the jobs were built that needs to be respected. It really shouldn't be about change, but additions. The only time something needs to change, is when a design is not working. I think we agree for the most part here. I am only bringing to the light that when a tandem like WHM/SCH works as well as it does, it is EXTREMELY difficult to make an addition without changing a design that is already working. And perhaps maybe if we waited until 4.0 for AST, we wouldn't need another healer to create a combination for the job that works.

Believe me when I say I sympathize with those who feel concern. That said, to leave problem jobs alone for the sake of sparing the feelings of certain people is irresponsible when the repercussions are far-reaching. And when a job is designed in such a way that the only way additions can hope to compete is to copy from it, it's a serious problem.

I am on the side that believes everyone's bests interests are taken into consideration. This is the responsible way to approach things. I think where we disagree is pointing the finger at SCH. The problem as I see it is adding AST was like bringing home a new cat when two already live there.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Honestly they made AST a pseudo WHM and SCH in its original design, but meant to be slightly lesser, at the cost of its support options(cards)

But when they buffed AST, they had to pick which to buff. Its off healer or Main healer options.
Otherwise it would be unfair to have 1 job that can be both.

So the obvious choice was to make it more like WHM as a main healer, than like SCH as an off healer.
Maybe the next healer will work/function more like an off healer, and it wouldnt make SCH seem so strong.
(Along with content that requires off healers in savage, rather than being ok with 2 main healers)

[ADVSS]

but would AST really have been so overpowered with the 3.0 base potencies and free changing(lets just say war defiance like cd on diurnal/noct stances in combat? I mean they said something like it being op, but i still wonder.

[Duelle]

If they wanted to keep the two healer meta, it is likely because it was balanced and introducing another healer would be difficult. I believe the devs had the best intentions with having different combinations of healers. It just didn't work out that way.

Designing the entirety of healing around two options only works when you have two healers in the roster. That approach becomes outdated the moment you need to make additions to the roster, and would thus need adjustments. Specially when one of the healers becomes a mainstay in raid groups on top of fights being balanced around mitigation provided by that healer. The devs literally left no "outs" for themselves.

It'd be a different story if SCH had been more about healing output with shields being closer to cooldowns (this would mean Eos would need abilities that consumed Aetherflow stacks or the SCH getting the ability to consume Aetherflow stacks to empower the fairy) or if it had been built around a different healing style than the current rendition. You'd look at WHM and SCH and not even contemplate one getting a guaranteed group spot. And without an invaluable source of mitigation that can be constantly reapplied becoming mandatory, you are also free to design AST to have its own style of healing instead of forcing it to copy WHM and SCH.

Non-sequitur:

If we want to keep the Nocturnal/Diurnal thing, I'd suggest that AST naturally cycle between both sects through spell use, with utility being affected by what sect you are in. Maybe an ability or two that switches your sect.

But there are other principles at play than just growth and adaptation. There is also a foundation from which the game and all the jobs were built that needs to be respected.

Taking this point into account, I could argue Heavensward has brought forth issues in the foundation for most jobs, seeing that additions feel convoluted (see: most abilities and systems given to melee DPS) or have to be based on things that we already have (see: DRK, AST).

And perhaps maybe if we waited until 4.0 for AST, we wouldn't need another healer to create a combination for the job that works.

This wouldn't make much of a difference, since all you're doing is putting off dealing with the problem until later.

[ADVSS]

Point is, neither of you are wrong, in 2.x scholar was being the awesome sch it is today and they knew this. Nothings new, it got some more aoe burst and things to fit it more outside of its weaknesses, and whm too got a lot more instant cast heals ans scholar=like abilities like tetra, and nothings changed, at al, and yes those two do their healing specs quite well, enter AST, which seems like they forgot what they were going up against for a contender, but youre right. Esp about not only ast, but drk as well. We cant exactly pinpoint where they seem to have went wrong, but they had the data and knew, esp about sch early enough along, so early in fact that we seen yoshi change his opinon about dual jobs for every class maybe a major patch or two, during 2.x cycle that it wa s a bad idea they wont be redoing. And its very true those two did perfectly well as a pair yet we have to have raid teams of2 tanks 4dps 2 healers, adding a third tank and a third healer really shakes the tree so I want to be a bit real here and ask what would you have done for a third healer? Kind of sick of debating where they went wrong, arent you all?

[revonine]

A tank is needed to compete with WAR and a healer is needed to compete with SCH (I'm still waiting for my Dancer). What I have take from Yoshida's comments about SCH and WAR though is that come next expansion while everyone will get new abilities SCH and WAR will get less of an upgrade to bring everyone else up to their level.
They really did create a balancing mess with that fairy though I will admit even as a SCH main.