Customary "When are summoners getting new summons" thread

[LadyVal]

Ok, and FFXI had six summons at launch, and summoners continued to get new summons throughout the game's life. The glamours are pointless without the abilities actually being different. For instant, Ramuh can have an AoE stun. Shiva can have an AoE bind. Leviathan can have an AoE knock back. Let's not excuse SE from being complacent because "people are realistic".

Also keep in mind that if SMN just got tons of free new abilities from pets, every other job would raise a torch and pitchfork and scream "Well what about ME?!"

FFXI, as far as I've heard, was MUCH less worried about balancing and whatnot and the variety was so strong that every class had a niche that made them work. In this game, everything is so stringent and balanced and has progressed so far with the same balancing that suddenly giving one job such an advantage (especially over customization of pet skills), would seriously affect the rest of the game. For instance, if the new SMN pets had so many cool abilities, the community would start looking for "SMN with pet X, SMN with pet Y, SMN with pet A" instead of "BLM, SMN, and BRD." I always remember Ramuh EX, and when it was discovered that Titan-egi was virtually immune to Ramuh's attacks, PF was filled to the brim with "Ramuh farming- NO TANKS ALLOWED." So if SMN becomes too strong, people would rather fill DPS roles in a party with each variety of SMN instead of a variety of DPS.

I do wholly support SMN becoming more about the summons, and getting more options, but at the way things go (and have been going) in this game the same treatment/boost/option would need to be applied to all jobs, lest the community start shutting out others in the name of efficiency. Because the general mindset of MMO players now is "Why settle for unique when I can take the cookie-cutter best to save time and get what I want as fast as possible?"

[Shurrikhan]

Also keep in mind that if SMN just got tons of free new abilities from pets, every other job would raise a torch and pitchfork and scream "Well what about ME?!"

So if SMN becomes too strong, people would rather fill DPS roles in a party with each variety of SMN instead of a variety of DPS.

I do wholly support SMN becoming more about the summons, and getting more options, but at the way things go (and have been going) in this game the same treatment/boost/option would need to be applied to all jobs, lest the community start shutting out others in the name of efficiency. Because the general mindset of MMO players now is "Why settle for unique when I can take the cookie-cutter best to save time and get what I want as fast as possible?"

So you then give BLMs the element aspecting/stancing idea Yoshi shot down after internal discussion, deepen and make viable both WM and non-WM/GB gameplay for Bards, diversify Fists of " " gameplay for Monks, add more rotational and resource options for Dragoon, etc., increasing simultaneous or stanced lateral complexity and versatility for all jobs. I'd love to see that.

There's always a point of balance. Merely buffing certain aspects of a job is never necessarily going to start removing others in the line-up. Now, if the state of SMNs after really fleshing out their pets and consequent gameplay calls for buffs to other job's skill ceilings, multiplicity of playstyles, versatility, etc., then so be it. But even then I severely doubt that SMNs versatility, especially when pet-dependent (e.g. 'stanced', at at a slow swap at that), is going to start dominating party composition. Even if the SMN has more actions available to it, that rarely affects actual efficiency, especially if any other job can do the same thing, likely at less cost to raw dps. Ramuh Titan-tank parties were due to a massive and truly silly oversight, and it was fixed about as quickly as SE fixes anything of note. Beyond that, SMN was nice for its rez, mobility, and multi-DoTing during add phase — all significant, but rarely a reason to deny any other dps the spot (unless overly melee-packed, in which case Bard, BLM, or a third healer would have been acceptable as well). I imagine the state of SMN would be similar after such buffs: other jobs might ask for the identity and gameplay improvements that SMN received, but it'd be unlikely to overtake other jobs on its numbers or "efficiency" when it comes down to forming a party.

[Ametrine]

snippy snip

FFXIcs lack of balancing has a very good example to show how overpowering a job for the sake of historical accuracy (for lack of a better term) severely skews job choices for roles.

Now, as someone who never played XI becuase child with no money, I\\'m forced to go off of guides and job outlines listed from internet sources, I\\'ve seen repeated the footnote of WHM being the vastly preferred healer. A level capped WHM has access to so many powerful healing skills (ie, Cure 5) that every other job with healing potential is passed over in favor of it as nothing comes close in potency.

Compare that to the healers in FFXIV\\'s trinity system. All three can heal through any content at the same rate and all three have good DPS. The drawback is healers are more homogeneous, but it keeps it fair.



Thinking back, this kind of mentality may be a factor in why the devs scaled the pets back in HW. Donct want a repeat of Ramuh.

[LineageRazor]

Honestly, I preferred FFXI's policy of emphasizing diversity over balance. But I can't deny that this lack of balance was hard-hitting. Unless you had dedicated friends to run content with, that job that you spent over a year leveling and gearing up? Yeah, you wouldn't be doing anything with it. Better hope that you'd also spent another year leveling and gearing a job that folks would actually invite to endgame content. And even if you did, there was always the possibility that SE would change the endgame paradigm so that your viable job would suddenly become unviable. For example, Ninja tanks thrived for a long, long time - then SE started giving all the bosses skills that wiped or ignored shadows, and were likely to one-shot anyone but a Paladin. Suddenly, NIN all but disappeared from endgame, because they didn't have the DPS to compete with the other DPS jobs, and they were no longer viable as tanks.

As bland as the perfectly balanced job system we have can be from time to time, there's no denying that it's effective in ensuring that every job is included. Every job is interchangeable within its role, and the various synergies they each have with each other encourages players to include a mix of different jobs rather than stacking one. No stacking eighteen BLM in this game to one-shot fights! You can play whatever job you want, and as long as you're good at it there WILL be a place for you!

[Remus]

Yeah cause a pet with AoE Bind or AoE Knockback would be so useful in this game.

[Watachy]

Yeah cause a pet with AoE Bind or AoE Knockback would be so useful in this game.

Be carefull man.... Had a mail from SE last week.. They don't like trolls apparently :'(

[Zohar_Lahar]

They've been confirmed to be coming in 3.4. We don't know specifically which ones yet, however, besides also regaining the ability to switch back to Carbuncle.

Would that it be Ramuh or Sephirot.

[zosia]

no mention last night, rip smn glamours.

[bass9020]

no mention last night, rip smn glamours.

4.0! Please look forward to it!

[Dyvid]

Well I give up. Summoner is dead to me.