As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[KaitlanKela]

Venjamin, I would like to know your opinion on the OP. It's clear that you think that healers not DPSing is fine. Is it because it's not pat of their "job" so to speak? If your answer is no, could you please address the damage mitigation argument presented in the op? If your answer is yes, then would you agree that you are simply acknowledging that these healers aren't performing their job anywhere close to maximum potential and you're just okay with it for any number reasons (likely that it's just not worth discussing in game, which is fair, i feel that way as well)

I'm just trying to be clear. I feel like the point of the op was lost on you a little bit.

[KaitlanKela]

Also, nice job dodging the point of other players adjusting playstyle to make the game more fun for everyone. =x

I'll address this.

I take issue. I play both healer and tank often (SCH i230, DRK i205, currently leveling WAR lvl 53). Now, if I'm tanking and I pull a normal sized pull because that's what I'm comfortable with, and I am using every gcd to keep hate and then maximizing dps, should I feel pressure to pull more because the healer finds time to stand there?

No, that's not fair. The expectation should be that everyone comes into the instance and pulls their weight. I know that's unrealistic to expect, but expecting everyone to happily accommodate slackers is even more so.

[Venjamin]

Snip

I'm just trying to be clear. I feel like the point of the op was lost on you a little bit.

My issue is that it's being looked at in a formless void, without the perspective of context. Do I think a level 60 who got stuck in Sastasha who turns on Selene and /follow's is a good healer? Absolutely not. Not even an adequate healer. Selene is an adequate healer, in that instance. I would even go so far as to ask them to participate, or again, would up the ante and force them to work a little bit. With the entire argument, not just this well-reasoned aspect of it, I am all about enjoyment. Small pulls are boring, so I DPS to stay engaged. But I massively prefer to be in a heal intensive fight. I had so much fun in Final Steps of Faith that I keep hoping to get queue'd into it. But in DF, I'd -much- rather we go bonkers and pull 3 or 4 trash heaps and make the fight actually worthwhile.

I'll address this.

I take issue. I play both healer and tank often (SCH i230, DRK i205, currently leveling WAR lvl 53). Now, if I'm tanking and I pull a normal sized pull because that's what I'm comfortable with, and I am using every gcd to keep hate and then maximizing dps, should I feel pressure to pull more because the healer finds time to stand there?

No, that's not fair. The expectation should be that everyone comes into the instance and pulls their weight. I know that's unrealistic to expect, but expecting everyone to happily accommodate slackers is even more so.

Now hold on - you were talking about maximizing Healer efficiency in the previous post. Would you not then agree that maximizing a tank's gameplay should be focused on as well? Why shouldn't we be pushing a tank's comfort zone to improve, if we're asking healers to do the same, all for the sake of maximizing efficiency / minimizing DF time? If all three roles 'maximized' their efficiency, dungeons would be cleared quite quickly ( in my opinion - I do not have numbers to back this claim, just experience with an excellent tank who can pull multiple groups. )

Healers can't slack if the tank won't allow it. =P

[mp-please]

Why shouldn't we be pushing a tank's comfort zone to improve, if we're asking healers to do the same

You weren't here on 2.4-3.1 with the hordes of str tanks now were you?

[KaitlanKela]

snip

So, you would say that a healer who fails to DPS is slacking, but just that you're willing to change to accommodate them. That's fine, it works for you. You don't try to argue that the Healer is contributing when they're really not.

I don't think comparing a Tank who's not pulling wall to wall to a healer who's literally idling for a few GCDs at a time is a remotely accurate analogy, however. If the tank pulls a normal pull and is utilizing every GCD (and oGCD) appropriately to keep hate and then do damage, that's a satisfactory level of gameplay. Healers doing nothing is unsatisfactory. You can't put the two on even footing. Now, if a tank can pull a few packs without causing wipes and the tank KNOWS this, then I say go for it. However, do I think it's part of the definition of satisfactory play? No. It's exceptional play, but not necessary play. Healers (or, let's be honest, anyone) contributing something meaningful to the group every GCD? That's satisfactory, non-exceptional play. Is the distinction clear?

[Venjamin]

You weren't here on 2.4-3.1 with the hordes of str tanks now were you?

Nay - I started when Heavensward was released because Astrologians looked amazing. Imagine my dismay finding I had to go through SO MUCH MSQ to unlock them. xD

So, you would say that a healer who fails to DPS is slacking, but just that you're willing to change to accommodate them. That's fine, it works for you. You don't try to argue that the Healer is contributing when they're really not.

This is where I feel that context is so very necessary. In trash pulls, when there's literally nothing else to do, definitely. During boss fights where healing might be needed regularly, where mistakes can be made, etc, there's no reason not to push the heals if you don't risk overhealing, etc. Even then, re-upping Stoneskin, doing other oGCD actions don't hurt, do they? DF isn't just the leveling queue. Maybe it's also my lack of experience / gear level / or the groups I run with, but outside of trash pulls, boss fights can be challenging. DF isn't just 4 man content, right? I DF'd into Final Steps of Faith. It was awesome.

I don't think comparing a Tank who's not pulling wall to wall to a healer who's literally idling for a few GCDs at a time is a remotely accurate analogy, however. If the tank pulls a normal pull and is utilizing every GCD (and oGCD) appropriately to keep hate and then do damage, that's a satisfactory level of gameplay. Healers doing nothing is unsatisfactory. You can't put the two on even footing. Now, if a tank can pull a few packs without causing wipes and the tank KNOWS this, then I say go for it. However, do I think it's part of the definition of satisfactory play? No. It's exceptional play, but not necessary play. Healers (or, let's be honest, anyone) contributing something meaningful to the group every GCD? That's satisfactory, non-exceptional play. Is the distinction clear?

I can't say I've ever tanked trash pulls and felt pressured to keep aggro, if I'm being totally honest. Even damage mitigation is eh at best. Single pulls to spam AOE taunts and your DPS rotation is satisfactory? Again, it may be lack of experience / groups talking ( and I absolutely admit to being fairly new on the scene ).

Part of me wonders if this doesn't have something to do with the mentality of other games coming in to this one. I've never encountered healer DPS in non-PVP situations before now, which is why the healing feels so bland and effortless.

[mp-please]

Nay - I started when Heavensward was released because Astrologians looked amazing. Imagine my dismay finding I had to go through SO MUCH MSQ to unlock them. xD

In a nutshell a certain youtuber was around spreading the word on how full str was so good and how tanks, warriors mostly could do the same dps as a dps class and how str was great for every tank as it helped them to keep aggro. So pretty a good amount of tanks, newbies included jumped in that bandwagon and were going full str.
While it worked quite well for those who knew how to tank, those who had no idea what defensive cooldowns were made every single healer life a living hell as they were barely tankier than a dps and yet still wanted to pull big, and as you might've noticed, ARR dungeons have a lot of space for large pulls unlike HW dungeons.

At the same time tank stance dancing became popular too, i got to the point i had to heal through a large pull with a full str pld (like 7k hp) on sword oath. Holy was absolutely required back then as stun was like a mini hallowed ground to keep these people alive. Good times.

[Venjamin]

Snip!

Sounds hectic in all the right ways. Were healers expected to DPS as hard as they are now, during that time?

[mp-please]

Sounds hectic in all the right ways. Were healers expected to DPS as hard as they are now, during that time?

Wouldn't say expected but a dpsing healer would be a godsend with pulls as big as ARR dungeons allowed mainly when nins and monks had literally no aoe. WHM dps was welcomed specially due the holy stun and holy being the 2nd strongest aoe skill back then (1st being flare), scholar could also heal in cleric as lustrate was based on hp % rather than having a fixed potency.

At some point some tanks even took a hatred towards healers dpsing because we weren't babysitting them enough and demanding them to actually use cooldowns even though then and even now healers do a lot more dps than any tank can do at max efficiency.

People are mostly expecting healers to dps right now since tanks have ridiculous of hp, are able to self heal, pulls are conditioned through barriers with a 5mob/pull average and mobs in those pulls hit like wet noodles. But yea right now things are a lot more peaceful, those tanks realized cooldowns are to be used and with so much vit its rare to be surprised by damage spikes like crits.

[Genaxx]

I get what Venjamin is saying and I sometimes do it too, healer standing there alot doing nothing? Ok ill pull more and make them work harder.

But it doesn't really help since they still don't use offensive skills. Holy is better mitigation than Cure II when your fighting 12 mobs but they still dont do it. Usually ends up with a wipe.