Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

[JustPlainLucas]

I do feel like the dungeons have been "dumbed" down compared to when 2.01st released.

I enjoy (and still do) the layout and boss mechanics of Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold. I remember when stressing out whenever that large tonberry came into view in Wanderer's Palace. They were challenging, but not hard.

Yeah... most end game dungeons are just plow throughs now. No real challenge involved.

[vp_cmc]

Whenever I hear people asking if the players want a challenge, all I think of is Gordias Savage. How people utterly failed at A3S...

Wait 3-6 weeks for decent tomes gear or gtfo unable to pass dps check? That's definitely sounds like challenge (no).

[ADVSS]

weekly cap daily cap stop progressing now go do something else for 4 days

[LalafellDown]

Most American players do not like challenge, grind, or time walls. Not like they used too. Go to any forums of any MMO style game out currently that is made outside the US. You will see numerous posts whining about grind, time, or things just being "too hard". It's pathetic really but I'm attributing it to the mind set of people these days. Instant gratification. The problem with instant gratification is once those players get everything they want, they jump ship till the next expansion.

Now by "American" are you talking about the Russian Americans or the Mexican Americans or the European Americans or Asian Americans? Brah if you have something against me because I'm Russian tell me. I hate long boring grinds.

[Ametrine]

If you don't mind me asking, if Japan based gamers prefer grinds, how do said Japanese players view American made RPGs and Action titles that attempt to stay engaging from start to finish? Sensory overload?

[Welsper59]

I hear you saying "None of this extra content in game challenges ME". I blame Internet sites that spoon-fed you all your information, including how to perform in dungeon instances.

Try to craft three star level 60 HQ gear using NQ materials AND not resorting to prepared macros you found on YouTube. Heck, try figuring out how to get crafting blue scrips without resorting to an Internet search.

Try to figure out the ARR sightseeing requirements for all 80 sites without a search engine.

Your premise appears to be "I find this game to lack challenge, therefore the game design is wrong". It might also be coupled with a bit of "I'm nostalgic for another MMO/FPS I played. Let's make this game more like that one."

I don't buy the argument.

Bolded part is actually a HUGE reason why challenge doesn't really exist for most players. It's funny because when you think about it, most of the time, when you see a player struggle with something you might otherwise think is easy content, it could just be because they don't have previous experience with similar situations. While it usually doesn't take very long to figure out most mechanics, many of us don't even give said newbie a second chance to figure it out without explaining the mechanic, and thus the actual challenge is over and it has devolved into the equivalent of a memory game.

Even then however, a challenge will only exist for so long. It's like a Rubik's Cube. Once you've solved it enough, or learned how to solve it, it's not even a challenge and serves as simply a memory test. I firmly believe that has always been the case when anyone (myself included) wants something from the old. We want that same experience back. The unfortunate thing is, is that the conditions themselves make that difficult, if not impossible. We already have much experience with things we didn't before. Information about something is readily available, and many players will be sure to let you know about that regardless if you wanted it or not.

Having said that though, I'd wager that figuring out something that they may not care about much or have the patience for isn't a good enough means for a challenge. Even back in the day, very few of us were pioneers about figuring out new things or finding efficient ways to do them. Not many have the patience for it anymore, and to be honest, the devs of today don't exactly make things interesting enough to be that way. No longer do we have mechanics where players can utilize multiple ways to handle them, based on party makeup, gear, and skill level.

For example, when was the last time we had a mechanic where kiting was actually a common or plausible practice for some parties? I think back to XI and WoW, where some fights either mandated such practice or gave players the option to do it. In XI, my Dynamis LS would have a THF with Strider Boots (movement speed+) spawn the boss in Dynamis-Beaucidine and kite it. The reason being because the boss would cast Death at times, so kiting him around bought the group time to kill off the dragon that spawned with it. When the adds were down, the THF would run the boss back to the group for tanks to pick up.

Likewise in WoW, I think back to my Karazhan runs. The Moroes fight involved the boss with 4 adds that needed to be taken out by priority. My group didn't have enough skill or gear to quickly burn them down and no one had kiting experience except me. I offered to kite, as a Warlock, the more dangerous add because the devs allowed such freedom to be a thing. Adds were CC'd, kited, and prioritized to be burned down. Most of us had additional tasks, even as DPS (like my kiting obviously meant I was going to be low/last on the meters). We could use some CC on these mobs and utilize whatever means we could to win. And win we did. It was a lot of fun to figure this stuff out because it was unorthodox and something our specific group just needed to do. Today, players and devs generally have a specific way they want you to beat bosses. Deviation typically results in mockery or nerfs. It's sad really.

[Alexander_Dragonfang]

The problem is, nothing of what the OP posted can be considered as challenge. In reality, back in the day, that illusion of challenge came from field enemies that were either world bosses with their respective mob or heavily populated zones with enemies that used several debuffs (heavy for example) and crowd control skills (tongue for example) to generate that sense of "challenge" that, as time progressed, most of players noticed had nothing challenging about it, it was just plainly annoying.

Imagine a zone full of toads that use tongue all the way, hits you for 12k and also put heavy on you, on top of a gorgimera style world boss. I don`t see the challenge but i see a thousand reasons to never put a single feet on said zone.

Another issue is time, playerbases across the board have grown older, the average gamer age is not 22-24 anymore, is 32-34, we simply don`t have the time to go through something like that anymore, very diferent where days past when we had that unlimited school/high school time. If you are telling me that to make it from town A to town B i have to spend 1 hour looking for people, then going into the adventure, facing a horde of crowdcontrol enemies that are just annoying i will simply not do it, and most of the playerbase would straight out quit at such content.

I do belive tho, the game needs more challenge. Content should be at its very easiest, Weeping City. That includes all dungeons, all instances, all trials, story or not. I do belive in dangerous world bosses too, aggresive and lethal threats out there, but a zone full of them would just be a CC annoying hell that will just become another timesink that this game absolutely doesn`t need more of.

[Aylis]

If you don't mind me asking, if Japan based gamers prefer grinds, how do said Japanese players view American made RPGs and Action titles that attempt to stay engaging from start to finish? Sensory overload?

I like to think they take new experiences in games no different then we take them. Some may love them and some may hate them. No different then how some Western gamer's loath the Korean, Japanese and Chinese style of grinds, while others including myself like them as long as the game play is fun and enjoyable. I believe Eastern audiences are no different. While some yes are turned off by less engaging games. I've read stories from Eastern players absolutely adoring games such as WoW, GW2, Halo etc just cos its a new experience for them.


As for the topic at hand, I don't think players are afraid of a challenge per say. Some just want it and some just don't. I want to feel that most don't mind challenge, they just want it at their own time if they choose it and not have it forced on them right out the door and always there. Which I can respect fully.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Most American players do not like challenge, grind, or time walls. Not like they used too. Go to any forums of any MMO style game out currently that is made outside the US. You will see numerous posts whining about grind, time, or things just being "too hard". It's pathetic really but I'm attributing it to the mind set of people these days. Instant gratification. The problem with instant gratification is once those players get everything they want, they jump ship till the next expansion.

When someone has difficulty or a time consuming task, players will repeat that task till it is masterede or they will do it once then avoid like the plague, then complain on the forums about the grind not being fun. American players (and EU players to some extent) are not like Korean or Japanese players who enjoy grind/difficulty. These players are trained from a young age to deal with difficult/time consuming tasks. Look at where they rank in education, this is their culture. America does not have that culture mindset. It's one reason they tend to be much friendlier to new or inexperienced players. They are used to difficult things and helping someone else out helps them out. In America we tend to be only out for ourselves. We can see this when a group fails as we start pointing fingers rathe than failing as a group.

No, people want something fun to do. Having a bunch of trash mobs thoroughly annihilate you isn't challenging, it's tedious. Dark Souls or Bloodborne are challenging due to smart A.I and a wide arrive of unpredictability mixed alongside punishing you for mistakes. The whole game is designed from the ground up to teach you how to overcome these challenges. Scaling up numbers to make mobs hit like freight trains is the lazy alternative. We're not being offered anything of substance, just a wall. It's the old school 90s method when game development wasn't robust enough for complex A.I. Compare Dynasty Warriors on its highest difficulty setting to the aforementioned Bloodborne. You'll see how very hollow the former feels because all you get are enemies who deal massive damage and have triple their HP. Another example is Mass Effect. The first game is the only one I never bother to play on Insanity anymore. The enemies aren't smarter, they merely turn into damage sponges I have to slog through. So what would have taken me ten minutes or so to blow through now takes twenty or more.

I, personally, have no qualms with a grind. I do, however, dislike content designed with the sole intent of wasting my time. That's why I detest the Company of Heroes questline in ARR. It's not interesting, not challenging and takes over two damn hours while skipping every bit of dialogue. Coincidentally, while the Anima grind is a tad annoying, I don't mind it near as much because it's an easy grind I don't have to do all at once. I do some beast tribes and forget it even exists.

[Nicobo]

....Monsters can fell a solo adventurerer with ease and only through perception or cooperation can we break through....

I suspect a lot of ppl have not tried to explore as more as posisble map before maxing their level.
Back to 2.0, I died many times when I trying to reach Central Highlands teleport point, it was difficult for below lv40.
And when HW released, I also can't explore eveyrwhere without very cautious at Lv50.

Actually Diadem is what you asking for? Try solo it or duo it and feel how meaningful of each fight. ^^;