Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

[Jynx]

Hence the term: Trash mobs.

Most monsters have a mechanic

The mere fact that you almost always don't even have to bother dodging said mechanics is what makes them lifeless. Final Sting being the one that is still rather punishing if ignored.

[bass9020]

The mere fact that you almost always don't even have to bother dodging said mechanics is what makes them lifeless. Final Sting being the one that is still rather punishing if ignored.

Didn't Chigoes in 1.0 almost KO you if you used certain attacks on them? I remember doing leves/behests and we had to be careful when fighting chigoes. I could be totally wrong its been so long but its stuff like that I wish we still had.

[Tolmos]

I also think a lot of the trepidation that players have towards challenge in MMOs, especially this game, has to do with playing with other people. There is always that one guy in every group who has done the content 20-30 times already by the time they hit the run with you, and if you haven't watched all the guides and perform all the moves perfectly, they go full man-child on you and throw a tantrum of legendary proportions in party chat.

That can get under the skin of even the more seasoned MMO players, and is not particularly enjoyable.

So, in a game like this where random parties are a crux of the game for many people, a lot of them are not going to be happy with the idea of an extremely challenging duty... not because of the challenge, but because of what it brings out in the more "hardcore" players.

[Mraj]

I also think a lot of the trepidation that players have towards challenge in MMOs, especially this game, has to do with playing with other people. There is always that one guy in every group who has done the content 20-30 times already by the time they hit the run with you, and if you haven't watched all the guides and perform all the moves perfectly, they go full man-child on you and throw a tantrum of legendary proportions in party chat.

That can get under the skin of even the more seasoned MMO players, and is not particularly enjoyable.

So, in a game like this where random parties are a crux of the game for many people, a lot of them are not going to be happy with the idea of an extremely challenging duty... not because of the challenge, but because of what it brings out in the more "hardcore" players.

I think that attitude stems from the content being more of a dance with specific steps that must be done a certain way to ensure the party doesn't wipe. Naturally, people will have to practice more ( or less ) depending on skill level, and finding consistent groups at the same level can be difficult, as we've seen over the years. Again, I'd just like to stress that content difficulty should not mean "more phases" in trials, but instead content that can be considered difficult while being able to be handled dynamically.

For instance, going back to "dangerous" zones - there can be ways to avoid mob heavy areas, or there may be better times of day ( or night ) to move through an area. Sure, you can try to charge through solo, or with a full party to back you up, but your chances of success go down - but are never 0%.

Or let's take an example that is already in the game. So you're in Diadem, and someone shouts that they have tracks, then activates them....Boom. All of a sudden you have a Brachiosaurus stomping around the island ( you'd best hope it's a spacious one ). Tanks immediately have to grab aggro and turn away his long-necked cleave of death. Healers have to reposition as best they can ( while being mindful of other mobs that may be in area ) and prepare for Meteor. But you also have options: you have elevation and proximity damage that you can use or exploit. You have numbers, or a lack of numbers, that determines how hard the mob is. Ignoring the whole implementation of rewards and various other Diadem gripes, it's a fair attempt at more interesting mob types.

My thinking is we can keep EX trials and Savage Raids but also have content that encourages people to explore these dangerous areas and band together to accomplish objectives.

[Shurrikhan]

I think that attitude stems from the content being more of a dance with specific steps that must be done a certain way to ensure the party doesn't wipe. Naturally, people will have to practice more ( or less ) depending on skill level, and finding consistent groups at the same level can be difficult, as we've seen over the years. Again, I'd just like to stress that content difficulty should not mean "more phases" in trials, but instead content that can be considered difficult while being able to be handled dynamically.

While I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more variance in means of handling a given mechanic in a few fights, I don't think there's anything wrong with dance fights, especially when there's still enough leniency not to interrupt casts constantly (or if such is used for fitting spectacle, as in T9S, used rarely enough that casters aren't significantly devalued compared to their later bonuses). Done right, it gives a neat sense of being pulled along by the mechanics, getting a handle on its flow, finally ascending over or staying atop them, only to be introduced to a new current. Now, that's a rarity, but that feeling does come directly from the patterned positional relative and exact intervals of 'dance fights'.

I'd like to see other ways of approaching fight design, just as if possible I'd like to see more pattern and less script, something that'd have you looking more at your allies than at a rotational sheet, within 'dance fights' themselves. (Heck, if you could imagine a trial that doesn't even have combat, exactly, literally being a dance of sorts to appease the spirits where you're as much creative as reactive, as awesomely as you can imagine that incredibly vague concept, and then merge the two... it'd probably be something like that or within the spectrum of that combination.) Pretty much exactly as you had bolded. A bit less rigidity, in what design types we have, and within the design types we have.

...Also, I wonder if we're ever going to get sub-targets, e.g. Brachiosaurus feet and its head...

[CookieMonsta]

While I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more variance in means of handling a given mechanic in a few fights, I don't think there's anything wrong with dance fights, especially when there's still enough leniency not to interrupt casts

One fight which I dearly missed from my previous MMO was one where it was effectively an Arena with 20 waves of mobs thrown at you and an 8 minute hard enrage. Now each and every mob puts crippling debuffs on the team (like Vul up and damage down or slows etc etc) to the extent where the healers have to immediately triage which debuff is the most important to remove and which to just deal with. And to top it off, if someone dies, they get a Weakness 15% stat down stackable till 5 with a 1 minute duration.

This was a Savage level trial and there were many ways you could approach the fight like bringing more tanks and healers would mean an easier time with the debuffs but you risk enrage, or bringing more DPS and hard burn but risk one mistake costing the whole 8 minute run.

[Kallera]

hm....I don't think it is afraid of a challenge, its just, I've seen what this game's idea of challenge looks like, and it is not the fun kind of challenge.

It is either running the easy content a large number of times until it is well past boring...
or dealing with teeth pulling mechanics with a party of 8, where if one person is out of step, well time to all line up in front of the boss to die, assuming it wasn't some time bomb dps race with OHKOs just for giggles...

After that fight, I'm at a loss at what I enjoy. I have to choose between too unforgiving or too repetitive. I know no one is above needing work on their own role, but when its not your fault, and you still lose consistently, that's when the challenge becomes something not worth doing instead.

[Windi]

I find nothing particularly wrong with telegraphed moves, because the challenge becomes shifted into being able to use the right abilities at the right time and being able to react, which is better for me than anything obtuse.

I kind of wish more enemies had abilities like the toad/nixes, because being able to disposition other players can really put others in danger, especially if you are playing a class that relies on keeping distance. I think something like that would be safe to pull off on a wider scale as long as the attacks themselves don't go overboard.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I find nothing particularly wrong with telegraphed moves, because the challenge becomes shifted into being able to use the right abilities at the right time and being able to react, which is better for me than anything obtuse.

I kind of wish more enemies had abilities like the toad/nixes, because being able to disposition other players can really put others in danger, especially if you are playing a class that relies on keeping distance. I think something like that would be safe to pull off on a wider scale as long as the attacks themselves don't go overboard.

Status effects should be used more often too. It'd give me a reason to use stuff like Echo Drops.

[The_NPC]

Duty Finder can be hell or heaven depending on the group, thats this games mid-core challange right there... that said a more "Threatening & Scary" Open-world would be nice (like no-mount zones for 2.0 area's & no-fly zones for 3.0, throw in some high-ilv enemy spawning tripewires & give fixed enemies a knockback move that they actually move into place to knock you into said tripewire... that might make 2.0 tribe-strongholds scary again aside from the "oh they hit me with heavy, now its gona take me longer to get outa here"... that & maybe make it so regardless of lv difference a Stronghold guard will try to kill u even if they can't, only thing I find interesting from Destiny aside from a item-lock function is a lv5 trash mob can still kill u regardless of how much higher lv u are)