Tales from the Dragonsong War

[Mysterysword]

Let's not get into a debate about whether or not the mourning someone's death gets, should be relative to the amount of suffering or joy they caused in life. What I'd say matters is that Ysayle, for all that she spent a lot of 3.0 with us, received a dying scene that was not only frustrating, but also felt unnecessary. Because it all could've been avoided if we were smart enough to avoid doing all the Garleans' and Thordan's work for them.

Similarly, this is what I didn't like about the Scions' and Haurchefant's sacrifices, in 2.5 and 3.0 respectively. Both of those could've been feasibly avoided if the WoL did anything besides standing around looking pretty in cutscenes. I'm pretty sure Zephirin's spear wouldn't even have hit us if we'd just kept running, or stopped running. Killing off your characters feels rather empty if it requires your main character, who is constantly being talked up as a prodigy that can prevent such deaths from being necessary, to be a complete idiot and forget all their skills.

Here's the thing: I was already fully aware of how dangerous a place Eorzea is. It's written into every line of almost every quest, FATE, and even in some NPC interactions. Simply watching little kids learning how to fight with lethal weapons is a stark reminder of that. I didn't need a Tale to write in a character for the sole purpose of killing her off, in order to express that. From the detail that is shown of Alisaie's reaction to it, I'm fairly certain the purpose of the whole character death was also to add pathos to the story. Does Emery do anything for Alisaie in life, that another situation or character couldn't do just as easily?

From the whole story, Emery serves more of a purpose in Alisaie's character development, when she's dead, than she does when she's alive. Which shows that the main purpose of the character was to die, and I don't like it when writers can't do anything with their characters except kill them off.

Lastly, it is entirely possible to write a short story that has depth and compelling character interaction and development. I've seen several other Tales do it just fine.

[Fenral]

The problem for me is that it's starting to feel overplayed, statistics be damned, and when death becomes a predictable and expected outcome, it loses its impact. Half as many deaths could have occurred in this story without changing anything, and that's not a good thing from either perspective. Before it became the crux of Alphinaud's character development, Heavensward's final act wouldn't have changed at all if Haurchefant or Ysayle had survived, because there was nothing in the story staked on their continued survival, and as a result no tangible void left by their absence.

There could have been (and there should still be) an entire storyline exploring the effect of Ysayle's death on the heretic faction, and the resulting unrest caused by the loss of her unifying presence. Haurchefant's absence from Camp Dragonhead could also have had all sorts of consequences on Ishgard's defenses, had they chosen to explore them. Perhaps combine the two threads, and have a militant faction within the heretics try and seize Camp Dragonhead in the wake of Haurchefant's death. If something like that were to have happened during Nidhogg's final assault...

Call me a snob if you like, as if that devalues my reasoning across the board, but I feel like I've done my part, many times, to explain how and when any specific deaths were cheap and forced, and for what narrative reasons, and if you recall I have mentioned that not every death in FFXIV falls into that category, just a slight majority. I just want to see some sort of reminder that the ones we've lost aren't just beautiful, immortal symbols, but real people without whom the world is still diminished in spite of everything they died for.

(For the record, I have no problem with A Song of Ice and Fire, no matter how many people die, because I feel that the weight of life and the consequences of death are very well-handled.)

[Nalien]

Sure, but I think it's very easy for even the purest belief to become corrupted. Is that not the entire point of our conflict with the primals?

I'm still holding out for the possibility that somehow, something in our future has taken "suffering makes people better" to its logical endpoint: "to make people better, I should make them suffer." If not primal!Hydaelyn, then Zodiark, maybe?

Or maybe that's just a villain character I want to write someday. /shrug

I would say Hydaelyn is the antagonist in the same way a good parent or teacher is... I wouldn't say she's purposefully making people suffer, she's not the kind of Goddess to go "Hmm, you could do with a bit more sad in your life Alisaie, I'll landslide Emery!", she just allowed landslides to exist... Alphinauds little arc aptly highlights the growth that can come from facing adversity, and really makes me doubtful that Team Hydaelyn is going to take what is a basic component of life, and start forcing suffering "for the greater good". Were that they case, we'd have let Estinien die... We'd have claimed his sacrifice would make us stronger, instead we saved him and I'd say Alphinaud is stronger as a result of that... Suffering doesn't make you stronger, overcoming it does...

A world without suffering is thus one in which people don't get stronger, they don't change, and arguably don't live... I would expect that to be the endgame for the Ascians, perhaps starting out with noble intentions and they just took overcoming death to its logical conclusion, perhaps not... The means we've seen thus far certainly don't justify the end now though... I can see Derplander buying into it following some disaster in his world... I can see characters here buying into it following what happened to Minfilia... Hydaelyn did essentially leave her to die (Fiend Lyricssss), though all that conveniently overlooks the Ascians involvement in events... If I want to paint a narrative in which the Ascians are the good guys, and Hydaelyn is bad, I'll mention how Hydeayln got Minfilia killed, I'll certainly not bring up how the Ascians weakened Hydaelyn significantly with Ultima, though...

Damn, now that I think of that possibility... I really want Gaius to be alive... He'd be the perfect person to jump in and shred Elidibus' narrative to bits and remind us just how manipulative the Ascians can be... Shame he is dead, unless... Where did you come from, Unukalhai?

[myahele]

I always speculated that the WoD were killing primals in Eorzea (or even the world at large) prior to us seeing them defeating Ravana and the latest story more than implies that they have been doing exactly that.

It might also explain the WoD's quip: "Savior of Eorzea .... lost a step have we?" when we 1st meet them since he may have been defeating primals as soon as they were summoned(?) while WoL and co were busy with Ishgardian politics.

[Fenral]

I had a few theories written up, but... meh. At this point we've reached pure speculation born from trying to unravel a story with no apparent and consistent thematic core. Unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't add up one way or the other yet, and probably won't until we get that expodump from Urianger they're saving for 3.5.

WALL

While I think there's a lot you're saying that's right, I think we still disagree on where the lines are drawn. I think we've been jerked around far too long on this for it to all end with "Psych! Ascian Mind Games!" but I also highly doubt they'll turn out to be 100% right.

[PArcher]

I always speculated that the WoD were killing primals in Eorzea (or even the world at large) prior to us seeing them defeating Ravana and the latest story more than implies that they have been doing exactly that.

It might also explain the WoD's quip: "Savior of Eorzea .... lost a step have we?" when we 1st meet them since he may have been defeating primals as soon as they were summoned(?) while WoL and co were busy with Ishgardian politics.

My issue here is they're killing Primals before word really gets out to people that they are summoned (the Vath were the only outsiders to know Ravana was summoned when we came across the WoD, and they weren't a people in trade with others much at that point. Doubt even the Chocobo Hunters knew). Suspicious as hell if you ask me...

[Morningstar1337]

My issue here is they're killing Primals before word really gets out to people that they are summoned (the Vath were the only outsiders to know Ravana was summoned when we came across the WoD, and they weren't a people in trade with others much at that point. Doubt even the Chocobo Hunters knew). Suspicious as hell if you ask me...

So you're implying that the Warriors of Darkness are summoning the Primals themselves? That is interesting, but to what end (weakening Hydealyn aside)? Trying to discredit the Scions? Gaining more aether than them? Becoming Primals like with Ysayle and Thordian?

[Frederick22]

Can we please not turn this into a debate of who likes death and who doesnt? Please we had this talk too many times....

Since 2.0 people were cring and whining that we didnt had respectfull death characters, that almost all had their plot armor and "deux ex machina" or whatever..
Now people are whining because Hauchefan and Ysayle's deaths could have being avoided".. just please..

One thing is an opinion of taste... and another thing is a story badly written...

[PArcher]

So you're implying that the Warriors of Darkness are summoning the Primals themselves?

Maybe not themselves, per-say, but they are working with Elidibus and the Ascians, who are the ones who gave the Beastribes the knowledge in the first place. There is a possibility they are being mislead themselves ("someone" *coughrandomasciancough* gives them info about a Primal summon so they can kill it, but they don't realize its just a carrot dangled in front of them...) but IDK yet (I think they're in on the plan).

That is interesting, but to what end (weakening Hydealyn aside)? Trying to discredit the Scions? Gaining more aether than them? Becoming Primals like with Ysayle and Thordian?

The two bolded primarily (I don't think they're going to try to become Primals themselves, and while they could be using them to absorb Aether, it would be a nice bonus, not the focus)

Even Elidibus needs to weaken the Mothercrystal enough to allow Zodiark to return. Discrediting the WoL (and the Scions to a lesser extent) and boosting the WoD's reputation will allow them to work more freely, and garner some added support from those who hate the Primals as well (imagine them having similar backing we have from the Grand Companies). Them being the premier Primal Slayers will also kick us out of that role, make us a little less trustworthy ("while the Scions sit around in Ishgard, these adventurers are out and about keeping us safe from the Primals!") and so on.

We'll still have those who will stand behind us (the city-state leaders, for example) but if the common man loses faith...

[Rosenoire]

I agree. The point of this story, it seemed to me, was to give Alisae some character development. Not having done the Binding Coil, I have no sense of her as a character, and I was looking forward to seeing her fleshed out a little. But creating a character for no reason other than to fridge her in a short story format leaves me with no emotional investment in either character, so all I feel is a big "meh". I'm beginning to get the feeling that the writers aren't entirely sure what to do with Alisae.