Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW!

[JisKing98]

PSHHH make ff14 more like diablo!

give us our cow level yoshi p!!

This Guy gets it! Like let us get a rng dungeon that is swarming and i mean SWARMING with enemies, not the potd though. something harder and less forgiving.

[Sho86]

I would welcome the traditional sub-jobs we had in XI, as it gave a lot more flavor to experiment with. Another thing I would welcome is a optional Valkurm Dunes style zone that went back to camp/puller/chain method of exp gains. This was somewhat brought in with Deep Dungeon given the fact it can be ran with any party set up; although the camp method gave a TON of room for social interaction - which is what I miss most of XI. Other than that mechanic wise I think XIV is doing alright, probably more I'm not currently thinking of but overall it has a clean play-style feeling. I would however love an event or expansion even that expands upon Iroha's travel between the worlds, allowing us seeing San d'Oria and the rest in current gen graphics.

[Enkidoh]

I would welcome the traditional sub-jobs we had in XI, as it gave a lot more flavor to experiment with.

Except this was a complete illusion and came down to using what was considered the functionally best subjob combination for your main Job, in other words, what abilities and stats it would bring to the table. Some sub jobs did little to affect the most important stats on a main job and some couldn't make use of their abilities (BRD subbed was an example of this - because most songs required a musical instrument which could not be equipped while BRD was a sub job, it meant you could only use a small selection of songs that were actually sung, missing most of BRD's important repertoire). If a player even so much as attempted to set a subjob that the community did not consider worthwhile, you were basically laughed out of Dodge and couldn't get into any parties. There was absolutely no room to experiment at all. All FFXIV has done is accept this and taken the blinders off to see this illusion for what it truly is. Technically you could experiment, but in practice you didn't, you went with the 'established choices' (WAR subbed for PLD, NIN and DRK, NIN for pretty much everything, BLM for mage Jobs, DNC later on for soloing etc) - there was no way around it.

And when the development team comes out and says that a Job has actually been used incorrectly by players you know such a system is broken utterly (specifically: NIN and it's use as a so-called 'blink-tank' in FFXI - Tanaka's team never intended for NIN to tank, it was meant to be an enfeebling DPS class with Utsusemi being nothing more than a 'get-out-of-jail-free-card' when they pulled too much hate. Players of course abused this and used it for tanking, then whined when SE tried to actually stop players doing just such a thing by having enemies that ate through a NIN's shadows wholesale). Current producer Akihiko Matsui actually mentioned this was not their intention just recently during a FFXI-version of 'Letter From the Producer LIVE' that was hosted on Reddit (the transcript is on the FFXI forum):

What job’s current play style is furthest from the original envisioning of the job?
A: We originally envisioned ninja to be a damage dealer with enfeebling support, but it turned into a tank! We also originally envisioned dancer to be a support-type job, but it turned out to be really good for soloing.

So it goes to show that players were abusing the Jobs in ways that the development team never intended them for, which is exactly why the FFXIV Armoury System is set up the way it is, it's to stop a repeat of this sort of nonsense from happening again.

Another thing I would welcome is a optional Valkurm Dunes style zone that went back to camp/puller/chain method of exp gains. This was somewhat brought in with Deep Dungeon given the fact it can be ran with any party set up; although the camp method gave a TON of room for social interaction - which is what I miss most of XI.

The trouble with this is that ARR's very design brief right at the start of development was specifically to avoid this - Yoshi-P stated specifically early on that he wanted to move players away from exp parties (seeing the problems this caused in both FFXI and FFXIV 1.0) and onto what he termed "content-based exp", that is, gaining exp through other gameplay means such as quest completion. ARR's very battle system accordingly is designed specifically to stop exp party camping by having enemies 'leashed' to a certain spot (where if you try to pull them away too far they'll de-agro you and run back to their spawn spot with your hate reset). And, given the fact that unlike FFXI ARR is like all good modern MMORPGs and doesn't lock an enemy exclusively to you and thus other players can jump in and hit the enemy even outside of a party, old-style exp parties would rush through enemies more quickly than what you would expect anyway. So basically this concept simply would not work and thus will never be seen in ARR, this was Yoshi decision and he's made sure of it.

As for the OP, Bourne_Endeavor basically summed up my own thoughts on this subject so I have nothing further to add, other than once again reiterating that this game will never be like FFXI - a game that was from a much earlier period of gaming which thankfully the gaming industry has moved on from. FFXIV is a modern MMORPG designed to appeal to more casual time-conscious players. The days of level grinding in the 'Dooms' and exp loss on death and 18-hour straight HNM boss fights like Absolute Virtue have thankfully gone forever. I loved FFXI for the 11 years I've been playing it but I was also not blinded by nostalgia and saw it's many faults and problems even back in it's heyday. The past is passed. Time to move on.

[Sandpark]

Except this was a complete illusion and came down to using what was considered the functionally best subjob combination for your main Job, in other words, what abilities and stats it would bring to the table. Some sub jobs did little to affect the most important stats on a main job and some couldn't make use of their abilities (BRD subbed was an example of this - because most songs required a musical instrument which could not be equipped while BRD was a sub job, it meant you could only use a small selection of songs that were actually sung, missing most of BRD's important repertoire). If a player even so much as attempted to set a subjob that the community did not consider worthwhile, you were basically laughed out of Dodge and couldn't get into any parties. There was absolutely no room to experiment at all. All FFXIV has done is accept this and taken the blinders off to see this illusion for what it truly is. Technically you could experiment, but in practice you didn't, you went with the 'established choices' (WAR subbed for PLD, NIN and DRK, NIN for pretty much everything, BLM for mage Jobs, DNC later on for soloing etc) - there was no way around it.

At least there you got to choose from any job what you wanted to sub and got traits from it to enhance your subjob. The inability to equip certain weapons was a design choice, one that could be easily rectified if it was wanted. ESO allows you to equip anything you want. There was all the room in the world to explore, that whole game was about exploration from the world, to the crafting, to everything else. So much so that you had to go to website to learn all the intricacies of most systems. You might be shunned from parties for less than optimal subs or builds, but in that world there were tons of things to do in the open world or with friends who would experiment along with you.

And when the development team comes out and says that a Job has actually been used incorrectly by players you know such a system is broken utterly (specifically: NIN and it's use as a so-called 'blink-tank' in FFXI - Tanaka's team never intended for NIN to tank, it was meant to be an enfeebling DPS class with Utsusemi being nothing more than a 'get-out-of-jail-free-card' when they pulled too much hate. Players of course abused this and used it for tanking, then whined when SE tried to actually stop players doing just such a thing by having enemies that ate through a NIN's shadows wholesale). Current producer Akihiko Matsui actually mentioned this was not their intention just recently during a FFXI-version of 'Letter From the Producer LIVE' that was hosted on Reddit (the transcript is on the FFXI forum):



So it goes to show that players were abusing the Jobs in ways that the development team never intended them for, which is exactly why the FFXIV Armoury System is set up the way it is, it's to stop a repeat of this sort of nonsense from happening again.

That is called Emergent Gameplay and it is one of the best and most likely the future of most open world videogames. You see it in the new MGS, GTA, FFXI, etc.

The trouble with this is that ARR's very design brief right at the start of development was specifically to avoid this - Yoshi-P stated specifically early on that he wanted to move players away from exp parties (seeing the problems this caused in both FFXI and FFXIV 1.0) and onto what he termed "content-based exp", that is, gaining exp through other gameplay means such as quest completion. ARR's very battle system accordingly is designed specifically to stop exp party camping by having enemies 'leashed' to a certain spot (where if you try to pull them away too far they'll de-agro you and run back to their spawn spot with your hate reset). And, given the fact that unlike FFXI ARR is like all good modern MMORPGs and doesn't lock an enemy exclusively to you and thus other players can jump in and hit the enemy even outside of a party, old-style exp parties would rush through enemies more quickly than what you would expect anyway. So basically this concept simply would not work and thus will never be seen in ARR, this was Yoshi decision and he's made sure of it.

As for the OP, Bourne_Endeavor basically summed up my own thoughts on this subject so I have nothing further to add, other than once again reiterating that this game will never be like FFXI - a game that was from a much earlier period of gaming which thankfully the gaming industry has moved on from. FFXIV is a modern MMORPG designed to appeal to more casual time-conscious players. The days of level grinding in the 'Dooms' and exp loss on death and 18-hour straight HNM boss fights like Absolute Virtue have thankfully gone forever. I loved FFXI for the 11 years I've been playing it but I was also not blinded by nostalgia and saw it's many faults and problems even back in it's heyday. The past is passed. Time to move on.

So the future of Open World Massive RPG Games is to remove world identity, complexity from the AI and environment, and global unique enemy tendencies? I understand no one wants other players messing up their instanced dungeons or raids, but in open world? What genius would want more people to group up as easy as possible then turn around and make a majority of relevant content locked behind instances in tiny groups. Isn't the major fad now Open World with Dynamic events and realistic world systems?

I am not sugar coating the game and saying XI was superior than every other game or didn't have faults. But with a design team as big and talented as Square. I am sure with the experience in their elder mmo, they could create or bring over things from the other one and fix all the complaints that arose there.

I don't want to go back to the grind from 2002, but if the future or what we call Modern Mmos are designed to be on rails with no intention of re-visiting and re-iterating what made old games great, then I don't want to be a part of the modern mmo movement.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

At least there you got to choose from any job what you wanted to sub and got traits from it to enhance your subjob. The inability to equip certain weapons was a design choice, one that could be easily rectified if it was wanted. ESO allows you to equip anything you want. There was all the room in the world to explore, that whole game was about exploration from the world, to the crafting, to everything else. So much so that you had to go to website to learn all the intricacies of most systems. You might be shunned from parties for less than optimal subs or builds, but in that world there were tons of things to do in the open world or with friends who would experiment along with you.

Your choice was merely an illusion. As Enkidoh summarized, the community long determined what sub-jobs were viable and laughed aside anyone who even considered something unique. The equivalent would be attempt to raid in FFXIV with a vitality geared Dragoon. While the choice may be readily available, I wish you all the best finding a group willing to accept your choice. Those open world explorations still exist. They were simply streamlined into sidequests and more structured content for the ever time conscious gaming community. Frankly, I find the necessity of third-party websites to navigate a game poor design. I shouldn't be reliant on a guide to discover content.

That is called Emergent Gameplay and it is one of the best and most likely the future of most open world videogames. You see it in the new MGS, GTA, FFXI, etc.

No. That is poor game design. Unlike FFXI, the titles you listed expressly intended to give players free reign largely, and were not the product of players finding an exploit in the mechanics and abusing it. Furthermore, single player games do not have to account for balance because the experience will always been individualist. Multi-player games cannot afford this luxury as proven when NIN overtook other jobs and WAR made PLD near obsolete in FFXIV.

Imagine if GTA V released a bonus DLC where you could play as Tommy Vercetti, who came with a slew of benefits that put him above Franklin, Michael and Trevor. Maybe he had money perks or something. Once players exhausted the story content with those three, most would never bother with them again because Tommy is better.

So the future of Open World Massive RPG Games is to remove world identity, complexity from the AI and environment, and global unique enemy tendencies? I understand no one wants other players messing up their instanced dungeons or raids, but in open world? What genius would want more people to group up as easy as possible then turn around and make a majority of relevant content locked behind instances in tiny groups. Isn't the major fad now Open World with Dynamic events and realistic world systems?

I am not sugar coating the game and saying XI was superior than every other game or didn't have faults. But with a design team as big and talented as Square. I am sure with the experience in their elder mmo, they could create or bring over things from the other one and fix all the complaints that arose there.

I don't want to go back to the grind from 2002, but if the future or what we call Modern Mmos are designed to be on rails with no intention of re-visiting and re-iterating what made old games great, then I don't want to be a part of the modern mmo movement.

Instanced content allows for structured environments which the devs can then utilize to design around specifically. Pure open world leads to zerg fests like what became of hunts. Without knowing the exact amount of players, no developer can plan how difficult that content will be. You see this issue crop up in many F2P games that attempt open world. A large portion of content will forever remain untouched if rewards are deemed lackluster and others will become a chaotic mess. Merri even spoofs this mentality in one of his shorts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfG8qY0dINY

Take Black Desert. There is no strategy or sense of wonderment to their world bosses. Players literally kamikaze en masse because loot drops are determined by how much DPS you can inflict.

Unfortunately, if you feel that way, you will likely be left behind. Gamers nowadays consume content at such an alarmingly high rate, developers cannot keep up. People generally want to experience exciting new features, not re-visit old ones.

[Sandpark]

@Bourne Endeavor
You can't do things outside the box here because classes are heavily limited. The traits and skills your class job give you lock you into roles. At times discovering things on your own rather than what is fed to you is nice, it adds immersion but I admit a fault of XI was always needing to do that.

Every job had certain things it was better at. Ninja was never always better than any other tank, it depended on the circumstances. I'd admit party forming is easier when every job is flavors of each other but it comes at the cost of player experimentation being lost.

You point me to F2P games for open world examples gone wrong. Most of XI's open world remained mostly relevant right up until shortly after Abyssea expansion. It surpassed the depth of the game it was built around. XI never went mainstream because of it's lack of in game info, server lock, and the amount of time needed to progress.

[Lambadelta]

At least there you got to choose from any job what you wanted to sub and got traits from it to enhance your subjob. The inability to equip certain weapons was a design choice, one that could be easily rectified if it was wanted. ESO allows you to equip anything you want. There was all the room in the world to explore, that whole game was about exploration from the world, to the crafting, to everything else. So much so that you had to go to website to learn all the intricacies of most systems. You might be shunned from parties for less than optimal subs or builds, but in that world there were tons of things to do in the open world or with friends who would experiment along with you.

and ESO was so mega successful as an MMORPG right?

[Sho86]

FFXIV is a modern MMORPG designed to appeal to more casual time-conscious players. The days of level grinding in the 'Dooms' and exp loss on death and 18-hour straight HNM boss fights like Absolute Virtue have thankfully gone forever. I loved FFXI for the 11 years I've been playing it but I was also not blinded by nostalgia and saw it's many faults and problems even back in it's heyday. The past is passed. Time to move on.

I was actually responding to all this until I realized you seem to absolutely hate FFXI, period. You focused solely on the bad of XI, without any merit of what made the game fun. Then at the end try to make XIV sound like some entirely new thing with its design. XIV is just as much of a grind-fest as XI, if not more in some cases. I'm sorry you punished yourself for 11 years in FFXI, but that was a personal option; and it does not make FFXI a horrible game by any standard. Otherwise it would have long shutdown, no maintenance mode (with constant updates), or no hint at yet even another expansion as per stated from a recent interview (however slight it may be), -or- the fact they are working on a FFXI mobile version that currently has plans up to CoP. Now am I saying FFXI was the best game for everyone on earth? Nope, but its concepts are certainly not the disaster you're blowing it up to be. Bad choices by devs sure (not making NIN Utsu like Rogue's Shade shift years ago etc), but still solid core ideas.

[Duelle]

I was actually responding to all this until I realized you seem to absolutely hate FFXI, period. You focused solely on the bad of XI, without any merit of what made the game fun.

I've yet to find what people thought of as fun in FFXI. The combat was generally a mess (between TP dynamics to the bastardization of several of the in-game systems by the players). Class balance was a mess (god-tier jobs, junk jobs, exacerbated by overt focus on niche design). World presentation was a mess (the world being barren of civilization outside of the three main cities, though this I chalk up to game engine limitations and the PS2). Nevermind the plethora of unintended things done in-game that diminished my enjoyment (I can attest to this as someone who hates gear-swaps, staff-wielding PLDs and refresh botting).

Then at the end try to make XIV sound like some entirely new thing with its design. XIV is just as much of a grind-fest as XI, if not more in some cases.

The difference is that XIV at least lets you see some sort of progression. Which is nothing like, say, camping a named monster for a drop you "needed" to get into exp parties or doing Dynamis for the billionth time for your Duelist's Chapeau.

I'm sorry you punished yourself for 11 years in FFXI, but that was a personal option; and it does not make FFXI a horrible game by any standard. Otherwise it would have long shutdown, no maintenance mode (with constant updates), or no hint at yet even another expansion as per stated from a recent interview (however slight it may be), -or- the fact they are working on a FFXI mobile version that currently has plans up to CoP.

Here you're ignoring the fact that people who spend a lot of time on something are very reluctant to entirely drop it, regardless of how shitty the experience is. Aside from that some will stay because they have friends in-game.

Now am I saying FFXI was the best game for everyone on earth? Nope, but its concepts are certainly not the disaster you're blowing it up to be. Bad choices by devs sure (not making NIN Utsu like Rogue's Shade shift years ago etc), but still solid core ideas.

I'll call this into question. To name some examples, we've had people asking for extra stats on gear, often citing FFXI's stats and not realizing the balance issues those would cause progression-wise and gear design-wise (before even getting into how such stats would affect actual gameplay). We've had people asking for Dynamis and Nyzul Isle clones, gotten them and had one (Diadem) shit on for not being a source of raid gear and the other (PotD) labeled as repetitive (despite following almost the exact same structure as Nyzul Isle sans the floors with bullshit lamp placements).

What else is there? Pankration? A horribly-designed pet battle system that with some major tweaks could have been decent but was abandoned.

Moblin Maze Mongers? A decent system that was abandoned too early and then was implemented a second time (see: Meeble Burrows) because reasons.

Campaign? We already have that via FATEs, and the only difference between the two is that FATE mobs don't one-shot you the way Campaign mobs could.

Besieged? An unsustainable model, since that (along with the original implementation of colonization) assumes a continuously high in-game population.

Assault? We have this already in the form of dungeons, just without the classisms.

This all said, I'm willing to discuss things we could actually learn and improve from XI that don't mess with progression, but such examples are few and far in between.

PS: Before anyone mentions Delve and the several hundred other events with a single word for a name, those are all pretty much the same thing, just with different names and currencies. Collect gimmick (either items or currency) => pop and kill mob => get loot or get nothing depending on RNG => repeat.

[Sandpark]

I've yet to find what people thought of as fun in FFXI. The combat was generally a mess (between TP dynamics to the bastardization of several of the in-game systems by the players). Class balance was a mess (god-tier jobs, junk jobs, exacerbated by overt focus on niche design). World presentation was a mess (the world being barren of civilization outside of the three main cities, though this I chalk up to game engine limitations and the PS2). Nevermind the plethora of unintended things done in-game that diminished my enjoyment (I can attest to this as someone who hates gear-swaps, staff-wielding PLDs and refresh botting).

Go to youtube and watch most player reviews. The combat is the last thing people sing cheers about in XIV. Where as most player who did play XI usually recite how much they enjoyed the combat system. Class balance was not as tuned as it is here, but you also have more ways to play each job than you do here. The world being barren I would also chalk up to ps2 limitations but it wasn't that barren. You could go into areas connected to others and stumble upon a tribe or something else of interest.

The difference is that XIV at least lets you see some sort of progression. Which is nothing like, say, camping a named monster for a drop you "needed" to get into exp parties or doing Dynamis for the billionth time for your Duelist's Chapeau.

If I had the money I would buy a new car every 3 months and replace it every 3 months. However if money came that easy to me I probably wouldn't appreciate that new car for long.Same thing here.

Here you're ignoring the fact that people who spend a lot of time on something are very reluctant to entirely drop it, regardless of how shitty the experience is. Aside from that some will stay because they have friends in-game.

I drop something quicker than Doc Holliday can pull the trigger in Tombstone when it isn't something I enjoy. I can't speak for others.

I'll call this into question. To name some examples, we've had people asking for extra stats on gear, often citing FFXI's stats and not realizing the balance issues those would cause progression-wise and gear design-wise (before even getting into how such stats would affect actual gameplay). We've had people asking for Dynamis and Nyzul Isle clones, gotten them and had one (Diadem) shit on for not being a source of raid gear and the other (PotD) labeled as repetitive (despite following almost the exact same structure as Nyzul Isle sans the floors with bullshit lamp placements).

What else is there? Pankration? A horribly-designed pet battle system that with some major tweaks could have been decent but was abandoned.

Moblin Maze Mongers? A decent system that was abandoned too early and then was implemented a second time (see: Meeble Burrows) because reasons.

Campaign? We already have that via FATEs, and the only difference between the two is that FATE mobs don't one-shot you the way Campaign mobs could.

Besieged? An unsustainable model, since that (along with the original implementation of colonization) assumes a continuously high in-game population.

Assault? We have this already in the form of dungeons, just without the classisms.

This all said, I'm willing to discuss things we could actually learn and improve from XI that don't mess with progression, but such examples are few and far in between.

PS: Before anyone mentions Delve and the several hundred other events with a single word for a name, those are all pretty much the same thing, just with different names and currencies. Collect gimmick (either items or currency) => pop and kill mob => get loot or get nothing depending on RNG => repeat.

And Vermillion is so much better than Pankration? How many people play that?

The difference between campaign and fates is you played a role in an alliance vs beast war. Not just fought beast because they happened to be at a blue icon thing on the map with no story tied to their circumstance.

At least Besieged was an fugging actual public system for more than 20 players that you could see other players participating in from the server having varying level ranges from low level to the BiS people. And it was crazy fun, and had a branching quest line depending on who won or lost. You make it seem insignificant, but after effects do add immersion and encouraging someone to care about what happens to the world.

Assault and Dungeons are nothing alike except that they take place in an instance. There were dynamics there that are not present here like awareness, enemy tendencies and AI that make or break runs.

Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean everyone does. So if you didn't like it that's fine. I like most I see in this game, but the combat and closed-ness of content makes me feel like The Man in the Bubble sometimes.