How would you change Nocturnal AST to be competitive against SCH?

[BloodPact]

That would either be incredibly broken, or not solve anything as it's not the actual issue. Outside of a crit Adlo, Noct.ASTs already have stronger shields.

I said it way back when the job was implemented, the design is a major flaw and was always going to hold back ASTs. The suggestion on the first page is perfect, forget about Noct.AST and have the 4th healer be a SCH equivalent. It was always going to be a handicap trying to make AST everything.

They are updating jobs in 4.0, and they've already said they will nerf SCH, which may even help Noct.AST a little. But I also hope they change AST quite a bit to give it something unique. Whether that's to remove Nocturnal stance completely, or give it some more focus on its buffing niche. The current design of this job is just terrible.

The problem isn't AST (well, AST was pretty bad at release). The problem is and will always be the Scholar's pet. You can add 100 other healers and the way Scholar works will always put it on top of the rest. We'll see what they do to healer balance in 4.0. But even the Dev. team has been for some time now straight saying that the fairy is the problem here.

[Kabzy]

-Snip-

I completely disagree. I don't see the SCHs pet as a 'problem'. It's part of what makes the job unique, and I'm not for all jobs being carbon copies of each other. AST was and is the main problem because the devs didn't focus on the aspect that makes it unique, instead they tried to make it a copy of both WHM and SCH.

This is why if they do add a fourth healer I'm hoping it will compete with SCH and AST can get Nocturnal Sect removed and buffed in Diurnal/Cards. There's no reason that one job should be allowed to achieve everything.

[BloodPact]

I completely disagree. I don't see the SCHs pet as a 'problem'. It's part of what makes the job unique, and I'm not for all jobs being carbon copies of each other. AST was and is the main problem because the devs didn't focus on the aspect that makes it unique, instead they tried to make it a copy of both WHM and SCH.

This is why if they do add a fourth healer I'm hoping it will compete with SCH and AST can get Nocturnal Sect removed and buffed in Diurnal/Cards. There's no reason that one job should be allowed to achieve everything.

This isn't about uniqueness, it's about balance. Like I said in my previous post, even the Development team has come out and said that the fairy is the problem (and that it's hard to balance around). When you think of a permanent regen, unaffected in any way by Cleric Stance, of having its ability cooldowns separate from the Scholar (basically like a double cast in many instances); does that sound OK to you? I mean, the Scholar doesn't have any other HoT beside the fairy, I don't think anyone is advocating to remove the pet, but the it is obviously leagues above the equivalents of what WHM and AST have in that regard.

[Kabzy]

-Stuff-

The fairy is only a problem because of AST. Back in 2.x nobody complained that the fairy was an issue, and she was even more powerful back then. The issue arises when AST was created and it's role was to compete with both WHM and SCH. Whenever they create a fourth job, they can give it the right tools to be able to mimic a constant healing output while DPSing, AST just does not have those qualities.

Or if they did focus on the buffing system, make it less RNG and more potent, AST could have gotten away with not DPSing and heavily increasing party DPS. This is what everyone had speculated would be the case when the job was released.

SCH fairy got nerfed in this expansion, so to give it another nerf again would be a clear indication that the devs don't actually have a clue what they're doing with the job. I still think giving AST a major buff to it's card game, and making a fourth healer that has the tools to be an off healer would be the way forward.

I understand SCH is the best healer at the moment, but I don't consider it leagues above WHM or AST because they don't fulfill the same role. (Not including Noct.AST in this because that's just a mess.)

[Valknut]

but I don't consider it leagues above WHM or AST because they don't fulfill the same role. (Not including Noct.AST in this because that's just a mess.)

They do fill the same role, SCH can main heal, there are plenty of SCH solo heal videos out there, the problem is SCH can also "Off heal" which is something only SCH can do. Stop acting like SCH has been slotted to some role because it hasnt, WHM an AST have. WHM more then AST because of mana issues. You could intern have an AST just DPS an entire fight well madly searching for Ewers, guess who doesnt have to take away raid wide healing and buff just so they can half-assed DPS? SCH

Sch the Infinite, healing,MP and best shields class. But boo hoo they can't spam Indom non stop the heal a party. I have never had to spam Helios or Medica to heal a party but I keep being told its a thing so I should be happy an shit. Guess what I have done though, ran out of MP.

[Kabzy]

-Stuff-

Okay firstly relax.

And Scholar most certainly is in a role. You will never see a progression group use two Scholars, and so you will never see a Scholar main healing when there is a White Mage or Astrologian in the party. Your argument about solo healing is completely irrelevant as these are generally done after content is irrelevant or with a group that clearly knows exactly what to do 100% of the time. As Astrologian solo healed A3S back when it was relevant, does that make the job overpowered? I think not.

Every job in this game fits into a role. Astrologian is trying to fit into two, but has failed in the off-healer slot when compared to Scholar. Also, maybe don't listen to people telling you to spam heals, learn the job and optimise it on your own. Then you'll see which job fits into which role for yourself.

Edit: Also what are these mana issues you're talking about? This isn't 2.x, literally none of the healers should struggle with mana unless they're constantly raising people. Astrologian may arguably have better MP regen than Scholar with their LA buff. Please do some research at least before you make random claims.

[HiredMuscle]

I feel AST, overall, was a conflict of ideas from the developers and the community. AST came out during a time where the healers were told not to dps so much by removing accuracy from their gear, yet give us content that had high dps wall in which healers HAD to dps to get over them. Thus, even today, AST in both sects feels like a Main healer with just enough time to slip into cleric for combust and combust II.

I've been batting ideas around in my head since reading this post and several related and i cannot think of a way for Celestial Opposition and Time Dilation to work, personally when i use N.AST i try to shield only during tank busters, large AoEs, or special mechanics (Damage down debuff during A5S). but that's it, so there is less chance to use those abilities overall compared to the regens Diurnal provides.

As for changing the shields, i personally would like to see a damage reflect using Nocturnal, like if the shield expires due to damage absorbed, 50%-75% of that shielding would be damage dealt to the last source. That way since AST has a more difficult time stance dancing they can effectively increase their dps outside of cleric while not being completely OP.

[Valknut]

And Scholar most certainly is in a role.

Wrong

You will never see a progression group use two Scholars

All them Double WHM and double AST groups though. Taking SCH"S JERBS. Pointless.

Your argument about solo healing is completely irrelevant

It's not, SCH could Main heal. WHM has higher Potency nukes so why isn't the WHM Off healing? Cause Mana, Cause Fairy, Cause SCH OP.

Edit: Also what are these mana issues you're talking about? This isn't 2.x, literally none of the healers should struggle with mana unless they're constantly raising people. Astrologian may arguably have better MP regen than Scholar with their LA buff. Please do some research at least before you make random claims.

AST does not have better regen with out Ewer, and if your using Ewers on anything but spreads or redraws you costing the group DPS. once again SCH never has this delemma. SCH's are never going to ask them selfs " Well shit should I use my fairy, or infinite mana, or double casts or stupid amount of utility? Sure why wouldn't I there is no down side if I do"

Once again SCH isnt slotted to a role. When I'm paired with a WHM or AST as WHM or AST were 100% a weaker group because SCH exists. If SCH is paired with a SCH/AST/WHM whats the issue? There isnt one. The same is true for PLD and DRK, but not WAR. WAR/WAR no issue PLD/DRK your gimped.

[Kabzy]

-Snip-

I'm a little worried your profile says lv60 Conjurer, as this means you should have some knowledge of healing at least. If you think dual SCH is a viable pairing, I would strongly suggest you actually play the job and see what everyone else does.

As mentioned before, no one is saying SCH isn't the strongest of the healers at the moment, however the problem is in the fact that none of the other healers are competitive with it as an off healer role. By no means does a SCH out-heal a main healer WHM or AST.

I can't tell whether you're talking about random dungeons and hests or actual raids. Because what you've said so far does not reflect in end game raiding at all. And for clarity, when people talk about balancing it is generally directed towards the end game raiding scene, not dungeons that are extremely lenient on all jobs.

I feel like you are simply talking about dungeons, so have your rant but there really is no point for me to respond when I'm talking about the end game meta.

[corey1]

The pet isn't a problem from a healing perspective, it's a problem from off-healing / DPS-ing perspective. Which is the whole point of the problem, from the N AST perspective, since it cannot be as good of an off-healer.

Because with the pet, you get heals WHILE you DPS.

Give N AST a sticky buff that leech heals the target it's on, based on actions you perform. Each Malefic heals the target for 130 potency. Or something. It being the AST's own skill gives you a bit more control than the SCH has over his fairy, as you can select the target you want it to go on, but a bit less pure healing output. Each class still has a unique 'feel' to it, each class is slightly better at one aspect of the skill (healing output vs control), but both have what currently only SCH provides: healing at the same time as DPS.