Is TP interesting as a mechanic?

[Dzian]

TP mattered in XI and 1.23, ARR not so much. I'm not sure theres any hurry in changing it but.. Maybe they could re-work the tp system as like a pseudo xi tp build up system? AA build small tp, weaponskills build more tp, combos having a tp build bonus. Then TP consuming finishers that can only be used once you have enough tp and consume all tp. You would be doing the exact same thing you do now just with some instant weaponskills/abilities that you would throw in to consume your built up tp (maybe even the 100-300% bonus if done right). If balancing mages against that was too difficult i don't see any reason other than tradition for why mages can't gain tp from spellcasting.

I much preferred the overall feel of the battle system in 1.23 everything felt more impactful and powerful and TP was actually a thing.

In the current time system to doesn't even get looked at 99% of the time. I only ever notice my to on paladin for example when I've been in a fight for several minutes and royal authority or something stops working. Only then do you remember TP even exists.

As a ninja only time I ever run out of TP is if I'm spamming death blossom.

It was a much better system in 1.23 personally. but thats something i've said since beta1

[Shurrikhan]

[1]Giving an example via PLD (the job I know best), your "main" combo would be free (Fast Blade => Savage Blade => Rage of Halone), but skills outside of that would have a TP cost (Riot Blade, Goring Blade, Royal Authority). So your main combo would be only limited by your GCD, but your extra skills would have a TP cost. Obviously TP costs for these abilities would have to be relatively higher and you'd probably have to reduce TP total down to 100 for STR jobs. If need be, your main combo could actually generate TP.

[2]I'd probably tune TP costs to be higher but regeneration to also be faster while keeping the rest of the existing system intact. As for bonuses, you could give jobs like NIN a combo bonus to enhance TP regeneration to further play into this.

[3]Bonus:

MNK and DNC (if it were to be implemented as I envisioned it) would instead go off a momentum system. Using PGL as an example, your TP bar initially goes from 0 to 100 when you get your first stack of Greased Lightning. Once that happens, the TP bar decays over time and subsequent skills restore some TP. Getting a second stack of Greased Lightning increases your TP to 200, with it decaying faster while your TP is between 101 and 200. Getting a third stack of Greased Lightning would increase your TP to max at 300, and it would decay even faster when your TP is between 201 and 300. If you fall below 300 TP then you lose your third stack of Greased Lightning and go back to 2 stacks. If you fall below 200 TP you lose your second stack of Greased Lightning. If you let your TP hit0 you lose your sole stack of Greased Lightning.

The bonuses for staying over 200 TP would be increased speed and damage and access to certain skills (thus making certain skills require a specific level of Greased Lightning). The bonus for staying over 100 TP would be just increased speed.

Note: I got the idea from the difficulty level gauge from the game Godhand. >.>

I feel like [1] would have significantly more change to gameplay than people are looking for. In my own opinion, we don't need additional limiters to skill access. Rather, the most obvious alterations to TP, either through systemic changes to the mechanic itself or through very fine changes to TP-consuming classes/jobs, would be anything that introduces new rotations with an idea of TP efficiency, gives greater control over one's TP level, and/or gives reason to try to keep it within a certain range without that itself seeming a chore (there need to be reasons both to blow and sustain).

Take Monk's Purification, in this case without a CD, for instance. If Meditation scaled with the GCD, damage with current %TP, and haste with missing %TP, playing around certain levels would give you certain rotational variance. You'd want to be unleashing your oGCDs and DoT-cleaves at upper levels, but diving lower allows new rotational opportunities as well. If you want to be able to do a perfect Demo-dropkick with no uncovered AAs (Dragon Kick drops right after True Strike, rather than using it up on Demolish), you'd need to start within 20 or so of X TP point. Per-execute range is increased at high TP, decreased at low TP, while oGCD and AA damage outright favor high TP (the latter balanced by a stronger haste scalar than damage's).

Alternatively, should TP be exchanged for a new resource that doesn't mess with the original rotations, but adds some aspect of tactical augmentation, I think that'd see positive feedback. I'm just guessing, though.

[2] If costs and regeneration rates are both increased, there's no real change made, I would think? I'm not sure what this is trying to accomplish.


[3] To be honest, the only model I've really be fond of as an alternate to the current Greased Lightning system would be based on the Legion Shadow-priest, especially when it was still capable of stacking the Haste buffs from accrued Insanity of Voidform burst phases atop each other when played well (and with a bit of luck) even in entry-level gear. That said, that could as easily apply to a Chakra system (releasing the gates) instead.

To start with the Chakra/Opened Gate example: You enter a new level in which attacks generate, say, TP (or "GL"; here tentatively assuming a job-unique replacement for TP), which increases your attack speed but also increases the speed at which TP is drained, and slightly decreases the duration of the haste buffs maintained after losing the state (in addition to losing half, or up to an integer*quantized amount similar to the multiple levels of GL, of all accrued attack speed). This could lead to banking oGCDs to be used as a last resort via damage dealt to keep TP up in order to get the most haste possible, setting up for accelerated rotations to come, etc., all to start ramping out of control when you hit that switch. Alternatively, we could make it so you control the gates yourself, rather than it scaling automatically. Do you have the resources to sustain the sixth gate without burning out or burning up? Then fifth Chakra click it is (first click is second gate). The sad thing is that this system would make current TP a very real and almost even an attractive concern.

I'm still working on how I'd like to see GL work, but it'd probably just be a blend of that and what you've suggested, which are rather close in the first place.

[Alaltus]

To be clear:
You'd be adding additional oGCDs (all weaponskills are instant, so I'm assuming you meant off-global cooldown, or essentially abilities in every case?) that you can spent TP on?
Or would certain current weaponskills/abilities be capable of consuming TP for bonus effect? (Possibly spells and caster abilities as well, if we decided to make TP universal?)

Set TP costs, or just a minimum TP cost, and then scaling bonuses with the additional TP consumed when using up all of it at once?

Any particular gameplay goals for this system, however vague they may be? I could try to whip up something to see if it's anywhere close to what you're looking for if you'd like a second take.

Off-global cool down actions yes much like the current Limit Breaks but personal to you. The limiting factor for drg or for all aoes could be that aoes generate much less TP maybe. You don't generate tp per mob you hit but for each action you make that connects.

In XI 1000 TP was 100% and the minimum requirement to perform a weapon skill; weapon skills used all TP no matter how much you had. TP went up to 3000, saving beyond 1000 increased the modifier. Some weapon skills were better at 300% than others like Spirits Within. Weapon skills also skill chained which were a bit like battle regimens; did a bit of extra damage and left an opening for a mage to use a corresponding elemental spell for increased macc/damage.

If the mob gained TP in the same way you can do what many are asking for; break scripted boss fights. Trash are gonna die before they get enough TP but bosses won't and it will add an element of unpredictability that SE already has experience with handling. The bosses will still mostly be scripted but you will also have to be ready for which ever TP action the boss decides to use at random.

"We had the battle down, but then Bayohne started spamming super bad breath!"

[Alistaire]

Only complaint is that sprint costs tp while only 2/3 the jobs use it. Just make the pvp change global, make sprint a cooldown everyone has, but doesn't cost anything.

[Khalithar]

Short answer: No.

Long answer:

It doesn't add anything to the gameplay as a whole, it doesn't even add an illusion of complexity. To the classes that can use Invigorate, I can macro it to one of my more commonly used abilities and never even notice running out of TP and to the ones that can run out of TP (pld comes to mind) they actually lowered TP costs so the classes have more longevity or added certain cooldowns (equilibrium and the TP reduction on Blood Weapon) to help or in places where you absolutely need Sprint (PVP) they actually removed the TP cost of Sprint. At this point TP could be removed entirely and absolutely nothing of value would be lost, just make Sprint a normal button with a cooldown or do what Wildstar does and add a Sprint meter so it's never "wasted."

Edit:

And before any of the MP using classes complain, having melee classes limited by the GCD is perfectly fine and it works in plenty of other MMO's, the melee classes don't need a resource in this game. At this point I even argue that because BLM and SMN have ways to restore their MP (I mean BLM is based entirely on emptying and restoring MP) the only classes that needs to be able to run out of MP are healers as having healers with infinite resources is not good game design. If everyone is doing what they're supposed to, I don't even see healers run out of MP either or even run the risk of it. I'd go a step further and say that if they were to get rid of MP and TP entirely, no one but BLM's would notice a difference in gameplay. The resource system is really messed up as a whole.

[Shurrikhan]

If the mob gained TP in the same way you can do what many are asking for; break scripted boss fights. Trash are gonna die before they get enough TP but bosses won't and it will add an element of unpredictability that SE already has experience with handling. The bosses will still mostly be scripted but you will also have to be ready for which ever TP action the boss decides to use at random.

I'm not sure why TP and random actions would necessarily be related though? Even without a TP mechanic, whereupon a boss spends its 1000+ TP on any of random abilities, you can have a set of abilities, each with different cooldowns shared with the others on activation, and each time the boss cools down he choose another at random. And if bosses could de-pace (and therefore to a sense de-script) their actions, you'd run into severe issues with the current tank CD model. Why should a boss bother attacking normally with its skills if it could just save up for a whole minute, and then hit you so hard that you need HG/HG/LD to possibly survive? In either case it's dependent on the enemy's AI to consider whether or not it should bank its resource. That AI would be only thing breaking scripting directly, but without a sense of internal rotations there's nothing for the boss to do but run the tank's day by, say, using only burst when it pops -flat damage or using only machine-gun attacks when it pops 'for X hits' mitigation, etc. Which certainly wouldn't provide interesting gameplay. The primary difference I can see from using a TP system is that a boss can then accelerate output based on damage dealt. In other words, the more you fail to mitigate, the worse it gets. That can be especially punishing for certain strats and compositions. I wouldn't mind seeing that on some fights or on some mob types, and likely therein taken to the extreme because that can be really flavorful, and create some compositions you don't see elsewhere (like a half tank party being not at all a joke) but it's not a system I'd personally like to see made universal (much like I wouldn't want to see such strange comps necessarily replace the standard 2/2/4 in but a couple select fights).

To review and summarize, AI is the core component, not the backing system or weights, which can be adjusted per mob. You can have different mob personality types that can generate any combination of adjusted TP (or none) and/or enmity from various sources and conditions. You can have a set rotation, an randomized rotation on a single shared cooldown, use two tiers of shared cooldown, or more. You can have combo systems. You can have weights of estimated actual damage vs. base potency that may cause a boss to consider whether its wants to continue its established combo, which the tank has set matching mitigation against, or abandon it and its bonus for something that's not being mitigated against. They could take additional enmity from healing done, mitigation done, damage done, or even... damage taken (fixating on something they've wounded, more and more - such that you'd need to sacrifice some amount of mitigation > health to secure future mitigation when it really matters), or even upon "thwarted" actions (its AI decided it should kill X player, and that healing or that covering mitigation prevented it... Now I really hate that guy.) Enmity might be abandoned entirely at points for a tactical decision. It can check for weakened targets every so often or under certain conditions, or every N enmity or TP gained. So on and so forth. And that's not even getting to positioning, attacking vs. retreating, coverage, suppression, and so forth. It doesn't have to feel like you're hitting striking dummies who have periodic attacks and stances. It can feel like you're playing a chess setting one too high for you (at least until you learn to bait it).

[Alaltus]

I'm not sure why TP and random actions would necessarily be related though?...

No your right they wouldn't necessarily be. In XI i think some moves were random, some health based, some phase based, some were a mix of all of those. Depended alot on the boss/monster in question.

[DarthVella]

TP isn't optimal, but it works the way it is; and it'd be potentially confusing to existing players to introduce new resources for individual classes. Not to mention a headache for the devs to alter entire class trees around generating/consuming a new resource.

[Khalithar]

TP isn't optimal, but it works the way it is; and it'd be potentially confusing to existing players to introduce new resources for individual classes. Not to mention a headache for the devs to alter entire class trees around generating/consuming a new resource.

Not that confusing honestly, Blizzard did that as a means of making some of the easier classes a bit more interesting even though they had been without them for years and in my opinion it worked. It added some new combat options and they added cooldowns later on to work with those resources. So I adamantly disagree that adding some new resources systems would be too confusing, I think the players will adapt and get better and see that it's better in the long run.

[Shurrikhan]

Not that confusing honestly, Blizzard did that as a means of making some of the easier classes a bit more interesting even though they had been without them for years and in my opinion it worked. It added some new combat options and they added cooldowns later on to work with those resources. So I adamantly disagree that adding some new resources systems would be too confusing, I think the players will adapt and get better and see that it's better in the long run.

Though in all fairness they did basically standardize the most unique resource systems. Runes is now fragmented Energy, cooling two at a time. Focus is slower-regenerating Energy. Shards are basically Chi. Maelstrom is basically Rage, but generated from most skills (and AA procs) and spent on others, instead of being generated only through AAs and spent on most skills. Sorry, ignore that. #AngryWoWVet

(Thinking aloud) I feel like my primary concern is whether or not there's much of anything to be gained from the independent resource systems. Pugilist/Monk makes a lot of sense as using one, to me. But Dragoon? You could use the TP bar instead of the buff duration to track BotD, but to what end, and what before that? BotD management isn't a thing until 60... Would it become the Bloodletter / Rain of Death resource for Bard? Moving it into a resource would reduce a lot of the risk and tick-tracking of the original system, especially as it applies to WM.

A lot of the most obvious uses just don't seem especially necessary or interesting, which means that there'd have to first be significant consideration, even without that new resource at first, as to how the classes'/jobs' gameplay could be improved. At which point, is that tangential, or a necessary sidestep to get back on course after our present obstacle?

I think the idea of individual resources has a lot of merit, but it's got a lot of design dependencies.

As such, one other idea I'd like to go over is the idea of a new resource across all classes and jobs that could be used in a variety of ways. For instance, what if it's your limiter for something like... skill-chain-esque actions, allowing additional, cooperatation/sequence-focused damage that should be made further tactical in that it must be used sparingly? (Of course, should that then be an individual or party-shared resource, and if the latter, how does it differ from the LB gauge? Ugh.) Or, you could use it to "Flurry", duplicating your last attack at reduced effect (damage, percentage, and/or duration) as an oGCD. Or you could use it to increase critical strike chance, haste, what have you, but [probably] always just one of those functions. That function might be according to class, or even according to one's gear, but it's a familiar resource regardless. Just another possibility.