We're getting stat allocation back in 1.20, right?

**Kiara** · 11-08-2011 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by Stufoo

It would be completely idiotic of them to switch it back, it was always an impossible to balance system. You can't have that large of a variation between possible allotments without either nullifying the effect of any +stat bonuses or invalidating the freedom of choice that you're supposedly given.

Let's look at how it used to be, with stats so wildly useless that you really didn't see a change in mitigation from 110 VIT to 174 VIT, it was just for HP purposes.

Now consider, that the game is balanced around the idea that any tank is able to survive and hold hate no matter what his stats were (which is what the allocation system was). This destroys the incentive to improve yourself through gear because nothing will ever give a noticeable effect to your "effectiveness". DDs just wore plate because it gave damage cuts they didn't care about +8 str from haub or +2 str from penance because you couldn't see it having any effect whatsoever.

Now consider, option two, that you need to have so much VIT to survive against this boss, or that monster. Why even give people the choice to mess it up? Why erase the baseline of stats and create more confusion? There's absolutely no reason to support that (which is why we have the stat system we have now). It would just end up destroying the possibility of what the class can do. Imagine a CNJ who put all of his allotment into INT because it is required to be able to nuke this monster, and is now no longer able to cure well, or a GLA/MRD who has very little VIT so he is just absolutely incapable of mitigation. It was very annoying pre-1.19 to join a party with a GLA who was a crafter so he had 0 str and 0 vit allotted so he was missing half his blocks with a scutum and had the lowest hp in the entire party. If everyone HAS to use a certain setup then just make it uniform for the class.

A baseline stat system based on level and job, combined with an additional merit system on top of it is the way to go at the moment. You know what to expect of that class at that level, at the very least they will be able to perform. You will never have a full STR/VIT GLA or PLD who just can not cure themselves at all because they have no MND or PIE. There won't be Lancers who die in one hit because they want the biggest numbers in existence and did a billion STR. A merit system will allow you to customize towards the role you want to excel in, and the baseline protects you from failing to balance yourself. If you are a DD marauder, you would go for STR, if you are a tanking MRD you'd go VIT, nuking CNJ would go INT and primarily healing CNJ would go MND. Remember, these are effectively bonuses on top of the stats they already have so they will never be able to not do something just because points aren't available. As I said, just think of this as a couple of extra stat materia bonuses.

On the same note though, you can allow gear bonuses to be more powerful. What good is Penance +2 str going to do in the old system if you could just choose, at any time you wanted, to have more str? You could choose to have 174 if you wanted and you still couldn't see a difference in your performance. It completely dwarfs the +2 str from the belt so who in the world would ever care? Now, +stats aren't so readily available and they can carry more weight so you are rewarded for getting any upgrades you can, whether through materia, gear upgrades, or this merit bonus system.

You can see the difference in physical mitigation with a single +20 VIT materia, pre-1.19 VIT did nothing at all even if you had 230 of it.

Seriously, why would you even want the old system back? It was horrible beyond belief.

Well said Stu.

The old system (Total Stat Point Allocation) bugged me from Day 1 Launch of the game.

Think about it: If someone can shift ~200 (TWO HUNDRED) Stat Points around into STR, VIT or whatever they choose, what good is your measly, +5 STR Ring going to do for you?

The old system marginalized most Equipment and Bonuses you got. As Stu said, your Penance Belt with +2 STR was a joke compared to you shifting all your Stat Points over to STR.

The new system is a *combination* of *some* Stat Customization with our current system (where most of your Stats are shifted over for a good baseline).

That way you never have to be screwed if you were maximizing your Stats for, say, Leatherworker Crafting, and then your friends needed your help as a Conjurer (and you couldn't switch all your stats over) or then needed a Tank for another fight (where you didn't have enough time to switch all your stats over again), i.e., the old system, pre-1.19.

I want to see our Stats *mean* something again (like now), so a slight bit of customization is nice (which is what they're going for), but with most of our stats auto-shifted over.

I can't wait for 1.20 and 1.21.

**Physic** · 11-08-2011 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

How realistic would it be to give us total freedom when it comes to allotment?

If this happens, then all people would do is max STR and only use Attack gear and consistently get the highest DMG output they could. No one will be unique and nothing will be a challenge anymore.

Also, I am fairly certain they have already stated that it would be very light allotment. Which people are describing as a merit system because that's what it sounds more closely to, but not only that, it's what makes more sense to do. Expecting it to go back to being totally free is just ignorance. If you understood the stats, you'd quickly figure out how broken that would be with the new formulas.

all they have to do is make stats mean more to more aspects of each class.

say int affected tp gained per swing, piety effected how long all buffs/debuffs lasted and their proc rate (including non magic ones, and mind effected total mp, mp regen and mdef.

while a melee could ignore all these stats, he would probably want some int, definately some piety or his buffs would end very quickly and he couldnt proc any good debuffs like comrade in arms, and some mind for mp, and mp regen and mdef.

similar things done on the reverse side with magic stats would have the same effect.

Simply the problem is too many stats dont effect enough different aspects of classes. As it is a lancer has no use for int as far as i know, and probably piety. a mage has no use for strength or dex, etc.

**Jennestia** · 11-08-2011 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Mahayana

The problem is that SE doesnt know whats good for MY job... I know whats good for my job. Example is that conj has almost 3k hp but a little over 1k mp..... that's retarded SE. I want to at least allot some of my points.

Wasn't aware you produced this game and know the future plans and adjustments of this game? You do know it's essentially a work in progress right, as they've stated over and over? Especially since "what's best for your class/job" will continually change as the game is further overhauled, including patch 1.20.

It's near impossible to balance a game that supports "builds", which is why the PvE is always bad yet it works fine for PvP because that's what the "every other MMO" focuses on. While I love Ragnarok Online, we can't use that as an example of it "working well" because it's one of the most unbalanced Korean MMOs to exist.

Do we remember Crit-Sins?

Do we remember SteelColytes?

Why would there be a specific build widely used if "everything worked well"? As someone said earlier in the thread, even with absolute freedom (game balance being impossible aside), there's always that one build that becomes optimal or most sought for.

**Frein** · 11-08-2011 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by Fensfield

Oh yes it did. Ragnarök Online did it, and did it extremely well. There were indeed 1-3 builds at least for every class - and then there were god knows how many bizarre and still highly effective builds achieved through creative use of stat deployment and choice of gear, particularly gear that enabled the use of non-standard skills.

Yes, I played RO back in the day, and no, it didn't work. Many quirky builds were viable but hardly optimal and if the game had had a real end game scene, these quirky builds would not have been especially loved. RO was mostly a solo grind game so nobody really cared how you allocated your points. I didn't stick around long enough to see the organized PVP system but I'm sure it was dominated by cookie cutter builds, not battle acolytes and whatnot.

That kind of experimentation with strange builds can be fun the same way you may want to try specific strategies in a Civilization game (which is why you keep coming back to the game), but chances are you aren't really competitive if you don't follow one of the few established top tier strategies.

Originally Posted by Jennestia

Why would there be a specific build widely used if "everything worked well"? As someone said earlier in the thread, even with absolute freedom (game balance being impossible aside), there's always that one build that becomes optimal or most sought for.

Exactly.

**Physic** · 11-08-2011 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Jennestia

Wasn't aware you produced this game and know the future plans and adjustments of this game? You do know it's essentially a work in progress right, as they've stated over and over? Especially since "what's best for your class/job" will continually change as the game is further overhauled, including patch 1.20.

It's near impossible to balance a game that supports "builds", which is why the PvE is always bad yet it works fine for PvP because that's what the "every other MMO" focuses on. While I love Ragnarok Online, we can't use that as an example of it "working well" because it's one of the most unbalanced Korean MMOs to exist.

Do we remember Crit-Sins?

Do we remember SteelColytes?

Why would there be a specific build widely used if "everything worked well"? As someone said earlier in the thread, even with absolute freedom (game balance being impossible aside), there's always that one build that becomes optimal or most sought for.

ehhh guildwars was pretty balanced, and it had many builds. RO did in fact have many builds, many viable for pve, dont know if it was super balanced, but there was usually at least viable builds per class, and it was more a choice of how you wanted to play, and what weakness you were willing to have.

**Dreamer** · 11-08-2011 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Frein

Yes, I played RO back in the day, and no, it didn't work. Many quirky builds were viable but hardly optimal and if the game had had a real end game scene, these quirky builds would not have been especially loved. RO was mostly a solo grind game so nobody really cared how you allocated your points. I didn't stick around long enough to see the organized PVP system but I'm sure it was dominated by cookie cutter builds, not battle acolytes and whatnot.

That kind of experimentation with strange builds can be fun the same way you may want to try specific strategies in a Civilization game (which is why you keep coming back to the game), but chances are you aren't really competitive if you don't follow one of the few established top tier strategies.

Exactly.

Not everyone is a min/maxer. So what if their are cookie cutter builds? I just want to have fun, and part of that for me is customizing my character as much as possible. I played a restoration druid in WoW back before the first expansion was ever announced, so I'm quite comfortable with not being 'optimal' for a given role.

**Baxter** · 11-08-2011 04:43 AM

I am positive they said they will read stat allocation. If so that would be nice.

**elreed** · 11-08-2011 04:50 AM

Its gonna be a merit type system, so dont argue that much, they wont unbalance the game, they have the first steps done, so the next thing is to be specialized in some role but not loosing base stats, what im worry its whats going to happen to traits for stat boost once they abbolish the class marks.

**BruceyBruceyBangBang** · 11-08-2011 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by Physic

all they have to do is make stats mean more to more aspects of each class.

say int affected tp gained per swing, piety effected how long all buffs/debuffs lasted and their proc rate (including non magic ones, and mind effected total mp, mp regen and mdef.

while a melee could ignore all these stats, he would probably want some int, definately some piety or his buffs would end very quickly and he couldnt proc any good debuffs like comrade in arms, and some mind for mp, and mp regen and mdef.

similar things done on the reverse side with magic stats would have the same effect.

Simply the problem is too many stats dont effect enough different aspects of classes. As it is a lancer has no use for int as far as i know, and probably piety. a mage has no use for strength or dex, etc.

That's all really nice and stuff, but how would free stat allotment make that better? Sounds like you're taking one idea I'm shooting down and proposing another that's even worse than the first one.

Really? TP gain with INT? Longer lasting buffs with MND? Let's screw half of the VIT we'd usually take and put it in MND for a long lasting Sentinel. Sounds incredibly thought out and easily balanced.

**AmyRae** · 11-08-2011 05:08 AM

The problem with merit or tree-based allocation is that, by design, you're locked in to a rigid build you can't easily make changes to, so you're really just stuck with what's considered "the best" build possible (or at best one of 3 of the best builds).

To me, that's the beauty of a well crafted point-allocation system. You can strategize according to the situation you're about to face and place points differently according to what you consider important at the time. If a new situation arises, it's simple to make an adjustment.

You wouldn't walk around in a fire-resistant build everywhere you went, but going up against Ifrit, you might throw one together if it wasn't too inconvenient. A mage might not normally throw a lot points into Vitality for more HP, but if they know they're going to be eating a lot of big AoEs, they may consider it for survivability. Or maybe not. But at least the option exists in a way you don't get with merit or tree-based allocation.

It gives you choices for the moment and opens a discussion about what works in a particular situation, not what works best in most situations, so build this one way and never think on it again.

Thread: We're getting stat allocation back in 1.20, right?

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