Additional penalties for mentors insta-leaving dungeons?

[Cakekizyy]

This thread is about penalty for those leaving as soon as duty pops, not for those that leave after harassment.

[Lambdafish]

or accept abusive behavior from other players.

Not directly stated but a lot of what you are saying isn't in the agreement is in fact covered by 2. "Be an exemplar for player etiquette." What that means is that as a quirk of the job you will run into new players, some of which may be resistant, or even straight up hostile. What you are expected to do is handle the situation responsibility, maintaining the moral high ground and setting an example to other players. Rage quitting because someone is being hostile is not setting an example, no matter how right it might feel. If a player is acting hostile and abusive, that is grounds for reporting them, or vote kicking at worst. That is the responsible thing to do, leaving the instance is not the correct course of action.

[Miste]

Not directly stated but a lot of what you are saying isn't in the agreement is in fact covered by 2. "Be an exemplar for player etiquette." What that means is that as a quirk of the job you will run into new players, some of which may be resistant, or even straight up hostile. What you are expected to do is handle the situation responsibility, maintaining the moral high ground and setting an example to other players. Rage quitting because someone is being hostile is not setting an example, no matter how right it might feel. If a player is acting hostile and abusive, that is grounds for reporting them, or vote kicking at worst. That is the responsible thing to do, leaving the instance is not the correct course of action.

You are trying to turn mentoring into a real life job. It's not; this is a video game. Mentor does not mean "you can treat me however you want and I'll stay and help you". This isn't customer service at a real life job where you might have to take a little verbal abuse from irritated customers with stride because its your job. It's a video game its supposed to be fun. Do you know anyone who thinks dealing with verbally abusive people at work is fun? I HIGHLY doubt it; they just do it because they must because they need to work to live. If people at customer service had a choice they'd probably walk away (kinda like leaving the instance eh?) from the abusive person until they gave up and left or they would verbally abuse them back, but that is human nature right? We don't like people who treat us badly.

The base of a mentor is still a subscription paying player with all the same rights as other players. Just because they became a mentor does not remove their game rights. If SE thought that mentors were different and should not leave instances then they could have removed the ability to? If you notice they haven't. So you are trying to force your very wrong opinion that mentors should sit there and take harassment, trolling, abuse, for the simple fact that they chose to wear their crown showing they want to help others. Sound okay to you? If SE meant for "exemplar of player etiquette" to mean what YOU are saying it to mean then every mentor would have had their right to leave instances revoked. I mean because mentors aren't human beings right? They should just keep helping while being called stuff like "stupid b****" or stuff like the C word. (I've seen both and more)

Reporting them sometimes does nothing as GMs are not always available to remove the abusive player right away etc (also if you sit there and wait for a GM and not help your team it is considered griefing even if you are being harassed by someone in the party; even the GMs tell you you must leave the instance and not hold your group up if you cannot play).

Vote kicking does not always work because the abusive player might be with friends who refuse to kick them or people who think that it is okay to harass the mentor because a "good exemplar of player etiquette" mentor isn't a human being right? They actually like being called c***, f*****, and b**** right?. Still think its okay to say mentors should not leave? You still think it is "rage quitting" to leave because someone is treating you like crap? It isn't. It's called leaving because being treated like crap isn't fun and it isn't what people pay their subscription for.

[LalafellDown]

A lot of mentors getting dungeons or trials for roulette seem to be leaving as soon as they pop in because they want a guildhest, leaving a lot of newer players stranded. Seems like it happens with the healer and tank ones most often, leaving DPS alone in instances.

Is there some sort of additional punishment than the 30 minutes? It's really disrespectful to the people who are queuing for these only to end up in an empty instance.

Did the mentors that leave tell you they're leaving the run because they didn't get what they wanted? how do you know what the reason is that they left as soon as the dungeon started? They owe you no explanation. Either real life related or game related its non of your business. If they did tell you they don't like this dungeon than that's fine.

From personal experience I've left the dungeons without any explanation at all. Usually its because of work calling me back in. Had a power outage that lasted for a few hours. PC suddenly shut down had to figure out why it kept freezing up for a while(GPU overheated). People leaving dungeons because of an S rank that pops if fine too (gotta maximize the tomes). Real Life events happen, you telling them they can't leave because you've been queuing up for this dungeon for 30 minutes is hindering their game experience.

If you want a solution to punish mentors then you wont get one until it punishes the entire community.

[MeiUshu]

snip.

you would be right IF said person, sub payer, didnt chose on his own free will to be a Mentor. From that point onwards, he willing set himself at the disposal of a certain category of player base, called newby, unknowledgable, or simply new to that content to help them get through that one through mentoring.

There is a difference between having fun at the expenses of others, which is NOT fun, and having fun while doing something that you chosoe to do and you enjoy doing.

Dont please mix up stuff together. If he or she cannot do this he shoudlnt choose it at all. A new player sees *Mentor* and knows that said Mentor is supposed/meant/even to extend obligated to help, yep...

Tough? no, true yes

[Reinha]

What that means is that as a quirk of the job you will run into new players, some of which may be resistant, or even straight up hostile. What you are expected to do is handle the situation responsibility, maintaining the moral high ground and setting an example to other players. Rage quitting because someone is being hostile is not setting an example, no matter how right it might feel. If a player is acting hostile and abusive, that is grounds for reporting them, or vote kicking at worst. That is the responsible thing to do, leaving the instance is not the correct course of action.

you would be right IF said person, sub payer, didnt chose on his own free will to be a Mentor. From that point onwards, he willing set himself at the disposal of a certain category of player base, called newby, unknowledgable, or simply new to that content to help them get through that one through mentoring.

I find it very sad that you two are excusing new players that act bratty or hostile. There is no reason why a new player should act like that, and allowing it to happen (whether it's directed to the mentor or someone else) is setting a very bad example to other party members. Abusive players should get kicked and reported immediately, and if that doesn't work one must remove the audience from the abusive player by leaving the instance himself. Accepting bad behavior is not a part of mentoring. Saying that it is means you think it's expected and okey for new players to act like jerks, which is pretty insulting to all new players.

Mentorship being a choice doesn't mean they deserve abuse. Teachers do their job by choice too. Policemen, salespeople, doctors and barbers all made a choice to serve people. It's still illegal to harass them. If it's a job to do with upbringing and educating children it entails enduring some harmless immaturity, but even then the hired person has the tools to put a stop to escalating situations. But nothing says all new players in this game should be expected to act like children. Low level doesn't mean low age.

EDIT: Mei, where did I misunderstand? I got the impression that you did not agree with Miste on anything and that a mentor should quit mentoring if he/she can't handle all kinds of treatment.

You are trying to turn mentoring into a real life job. It's not; this is a video game. Mentor does not mean "you can treat me however you want and I'll stay and help you". This isn't customer service at a real life job where you might have to take a little verbal abuse from irritated customers with stride because its your job.

you would be right IF said person, sub payer, didnt chose on his own free will to be a Mentor.

[MeiUshu]

[QUOTE=Reinha;3794303]I QUOTE]

as far as I am concerned, you are wrong, very wrong in saying I caution verbal abuse...try again something else. Or, better said, step back, think through, read my posts again and even this of Lambdafish he was quite clear in his own post actually where he stands (my perception fo course, will let him speak for himself) and try again to call me out with something consistent.

Edited: i dont caution verbal abuse at all. A mentor when mentoring does a job he is obligated by what he choose to do to help. Understand that staff related to his job is not what is related to the person behind the screen. Mentor must help and guide but verbal abuse is directed at the person not the mentor and that needs to be reported or kick whoever is insulting.

A mentor though needs to understand when it relates to him as individual or him as mentor. Basically just because you are a mentor people should bow to you is wrong BUT on the contrary a newby asking your help or expecting in a mentor roulette a mentoring is right and here comes my answer to you just because you mentor find it no fun to teach doesnt allow said person to actually do not do what he said he would do and ignore players tell them off of simply leave is wrong.

That mentor is wrong as he defeats the purpose of his job. Mentoring is often all but fun but nobody forced anyone to do what they dont want to do but the crown in a mentor roulette or anywhere forces you to live by what you said you would do MENTOR. This has nothing to do with insults those are wrong for and to anyone regardless of status.

But rather than leaving kick or report
The rest you should be strong enough to ignore. There is the i dividual and the job two worlds and most dont do the difference. Insults affect individual .. leaving a dungeon because too long or not wanting to deal with something long affects the job and that is what is sanctionned ... not the individual but the job as that is something it was entered into willingly by choice. Cant explain better

To end this the fun for mentor is guiding if you dont feel like it remove the crown but from the moment you have it on and dont live by it you should be sanctionned harshly.

Insults is not even a topic you have report kick and ignore but remember that if a mentor leaves for mere words of one person he sactionned two other players and that us wrong too.. being a mentor means also being responsible

Fearing words from others is being weak... keep this in mind next time doneone wants to insult you they only have power over you if you let them this includes words.yep welcome to teacher world..

[Miste]

But rather than leaving kick or report

I already thoroughly explained why sometimes those two things do not work. So maybe you didn't read or didn't understand?

as far as I am concerned, you are wrong, very wrong in saying I caution verbal abuse...try again something else. Or, better said, step back, think through, read my posts again and even this of Lambdafish he was quite clear in his own post actually where he stands (my perception fo course, will let him speak for himself) and try again to call me out with something consistent.

To be completely 100% honest with you; your response to me doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I posted about so either I do not understand your post or you do not understand mine. There may be a language barrier here.

Lambdafish said "leaving the instance is not the correct course of action."

Sorry but I do not understand why you agree with this mentality. You expect people to just stay in an instance with a troll verbally abusing you?

You expect players to stay in an instance with someone typing to them that they are a "b****", "c***", or worse? You are basically saying that mentors are expected to just accept this behavior and keep helping. I don't get it. This is a very heartless, uncaring, and insensitive attitude to have. It's like you think "oh you are a mentor who cares if they are abusing you? just do your job. you can't leave because you signed up to be a mentor."

Mentors become mentors for 2 reasons:

Reason number one is they want to help their fellow players. This is why I personally became a mentor. I like helping people clear content like EX Primals because I know how hard it can be to get people to help for those. It makes me happy that I was able to help them get their first clear and learn the mechanics. I try my best to explain things in an easily understandable way and answer any questions.

Reason number two is they became a mentor just for the rewards. I personally think this is wrong. You should not be a mentor for the rewards. You should be one to help your fellow players.

People DO NOT become mentors to be verbally abused, harassed, trolled, treated like garbage. If a player treats a mentor this way then they no longer have the right to ask the mentor for help. This I think would be obvious? It's like if you went up to talk to someone and said "Hey, you are a stupid b****.............but anyway can you help me with something?"

See anything wrong with this picture?

If ANY player, mentor or not, gets abused in an instance group stop trying to blame them for leaving. Blame the rude player who is verbally abusing, harassing, or trolling them. Stop blaming the victim for leaving an abusive situation and instead blame the abuser. It's like if you got punched in the face and someone said "oh...well you shouldn't be so easy to punch in the face, its your own fault obviously, not the guy who punched you"

Totally don't understand it.

Fearing words from others is being weak... keep this in mind next time doneone wants to insult you they only have power over you if you let them this includes words.yep welcome to teacher world..

No one said anything about fearing words from others and if you want to look down on people for being "weak" as you call it then that's your choice. Not everyone has a strong mind and might have mental issues etc and cruel words from others, even just words, can hurt them emotionally. I personally do not have this situation myself but I am understanding and caring enough to not label them as "weak" just because some people cannot take verbal abuse. So if you can ignore it and continue playing with a player verbally abusing you then great, more power to you, but do not try to force this on others.

[Reinha]

Mentoring is often all but fun but nobody forced anyone to do what they dont want to do but the crown in a mentor roulette or anywhere forces you to live by what you said you would do MENTOR. This has nothing to do with insults those are wrong for and to anyone regardless of status.

Mentoring, i.e. teaching, is fun. Taking abuse is not. Lambdafish said "leaving the instance is not the correct course of action" against hostile players. But that's wrong. If the majority of the party wants to keep the abusive player around then leaving the instance is the only way to get rid of abuse. Miste said no one should be forced to take abuse in a game, and those who want to help others are certainly no exception. Then you replied that you don't agree with Miste, and in your latest post you talk about all except abusive behavior towards mentors which I thought was the topic at hand. This is getting very confusing. Yes - mentors are supposed to help because it's what they signed up for, but no - mentors don't have to stick around if they are getting verbally abused. Those are two different things. Being verbally abused does not equal teaching. Maybe you should take your own advice:

Dont please mix up stuff together.

And by the way, it's not a job. A task maybe, but not a job. No contract, no pay. If you're going to equate tomestones to pay, then everyone in the instance is also doing a job since they are getting paid tomestones, gil or experience. If you don't think a mentor is allowed to leave an abusive situation, then neither should anyone else. Lets remove the leave-button shall we.

Insults is not even a topic you have report kick and ignore but remember that if a mentor leaves for mere words of one person he sactionned two other players and that us wrong too.. being a mentor means also being responsible

If kicking doesn't work that means the two other people want to keep an abusive person around. In that case they don't deserve help any more than the abuser. If you really are a teacher you should know that the people standing by watching a bullying situation are just as much involved as the bully; the audience is the reason it keeps going on and on. There is no reason why you should help these people if they are not willing to help you by kicking the nasty person.

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Might as well reply to the original topic, even though there are already a lot of sensible replies. Adding an extra penalty to people who leave instantly (say within 5 minutes) sounds good, as long as it is for everyone and not just mentors. Everyone should be decent, not just mentors. Halving the roulette bonus for the day each time the person leaves a roulette instance within a short time would be my suggestion. It would only affect those who are trying to cherry pick a roulette instance.

[LineageRazor]

Whatever the thoughts you might have on whether it's okay for a mentor to jump ship due to harassment, bear in mind that in addition to the Mentor and the harasser, there are two or six other people in the instance who may well be innocent of any wrongdoing. You need to take them into consideration before bowing out - particularly if you're a tank or healer, as losing you has a high chance of dooming the run. And, certainly, try to vote kick them first, if it comes down to that.

However, it has been my experience that harassment of this type is very, very rare. I've participated in a ridiculous number of instances in my FFXIV career, and only seen persistent and vitriolic harassment at all a handful of times - even less than that directed at me, personally. On the rare occasions that it does happen, though, I honestly find it a lot more satisfying to simply not rise to the bait. Just let the foul language and abuse roll over me, keep on doing my job, and not dignify the slander with any kind of response - not even a vote kick. Demonstrate to the other players who the bigger person actually is. Sometimes, one of the uninvolved players will recognize that the harasser is being an ass and be the one to initiate a vote kick, which is kind of delicious.

Also, if you're being abused because you really DID do something wrong, own up to it. Getting defensive never helps - and a humble apology will sometimes shut an abuser right up. I remember one instance; it was late at night, I was Paladin in Mythflox, kept losing hate, and I wasn't reading my chat log. Eventually I realized that one of the party members was calling me a troll, and suggesting I be kicked, all using rather unkind language - it turned out I'd forgotten to put on Shield Oath. I apologized for my error - and the abuser apologized as well for his harsh words. He was quite cordial for the remainder of the run.