Selling clears maybe within the rules of the game - but is it within the spirit?

[Kitano123]

selling clears is one of the bigger things that keep the RMT alive. where do you think got most of the people who buy clears their money? sure, there are some rich crafters, but most people will have bought the gil, like they bought the kill...

and because the kill sellers are feeding the RMT i am against the whole kill selling story.

What about expensive crafted items/minions? Should we stop people trading gil or sending messages to each other? Don't they feed RMT as well?

[Highwilds]

People sell, and people buy. It's not limited to just crafted items or craft materials. Sure it "degrades" the achievements from those who have won such without paying for it, but that's life. If someone questions your HW Primal mount and how you've gotten it, it's their problem, not yours. :|

[Marxam]

imo the question should be "is buying clears in the spirit of the game?"

No it is not. I'm in the camp that is against selling clears of any kind so either gitgud at content or just don't complete it. Make some friends and work though content together or get your fc to work together and clear it. The point is ppl who bought clears dilute the duty finder/pf pugs (which is already pretty bad in NA) and if ppl aren't motivated to play the game enough to work for a clear instead of buying then why would they continue to stay subbed?

It all goes back to the adage of teaching a man to fish rather than giving him one. Ppl gotta make money I get it but I still cringe when I see sell parties and it's even worse when its ppl I know. I also feel this may be a mental shift in causal gamer mentality where they feel that they need to buy clears in order to be accepted into the playerbase. Kind of like poor kids buying nice clothes to fit in. Though this is just an observation and hypothesis.

[Zojha]

What about expensive crafted items/minions? Should we stop people trading gil or sending messages to each other? Don't they feed RMT as well?

If the argument was valid: Yes, they would. Anything that requires more money than the average DoW/DoM can afford would, because it all creates a 'need' for gil.

Personally, I'm fairly indifferent about clear buying because I never considered a clear something special or worth buying. As such, I don't find it worth "protecting" either. More power to the people who can clear with a dead weight I guess.

[Kitano123]

No it is not. I'm in the camp that is against selling clears of any kind so either gitgud at content or just don't complete it. Make some friends and work though content together or get your fc to work together and clear it. The point is ppl who bought clears dilute the duty finder/pf pugs (which is already pretty bad in NA) and if ppl aren't motivated to play the game enough to work for a clear instead of buying then why would they continue to stay subbed?
[snip]

Again i'll ask: Whats the difference between paying someone to carry you which you have a problem with and being carried by your friends/FC which you dont have a problem with?

[ChocoFeru]

Again i'll ask: Whats the difference between paying someone to carry you which you have a problem with and being carried by your friends/FC which you dont have a problem with?

People will still buy money from RMTs to buy Savage rushes, crafting gear, minions, Housing etc...
Selling clears might increase RMT activity, but these people will buy gil for everything else, too.

[Kallera]

I despise clearsellers. and I think it is against the spirit of the game to sell clears. but they are also a product of the endgame environment, from the design of boss fights to the community reaction to them.

usually when they are current, fights of the ex trial variety tend to be very strict, with OHKO attacks, where a downed player will usually be enough to make the attempt hopeless, and leave players either running for the pits or waiting for the mob to just get it over with(must be a hell of a sight from a npc perspective!).

players that rush for a clear often do so because the state of clearing causes a brain drain among the community, people that clear only want to party with people that clear, because people that have not cleared will result in no rewards. and the fights are mechanically complex enough that explanations in game are difficult, nigh impossible if you don't have macros.

So players do not try, they tell others to youtube it, and bang their heads against it until they either clear and join the farm parties(where it is assumed there are more quality players all the time) ask their fc or static for help, or stop trying to.

If a person does not have these connections or lack the player skill, they are often left behind, and their efforts frowned upon as getting "carried". Think about it, the very notion of helping the unskilled clear content has a derogatory name in this genre. They aren't attractive to the parties because they cannot clear, and they will be constantly paired up with those that cannot clear. They are told to stop playing, gitgud, watch it on youtube, or join a static(which again, have their own criteria, revolving around clears, whether the static is willing or even capable of improving the player is toss up).

People see this impasse, and make a buck on it.

for a bunch and a half of gil you too can get 7 people to be the bros that can clear content and help out. you can buy the end of the adventure, you can pay for the win.

And yes people may frown upon it, they may speak ill of your clear or that you didn't earn it.

But they weren't there when you needed it, so why should they matter now? Next patch and their vaunted prizes will be a thing of the past, and they wouldn't have helped you then either.

Its a bad situation, but there's little if any incentive to improve on it. people are trying to keep their own progression alive as it is, to not get into that situation.

[LaylaTsarra]

I despise clearsellers. and I think it is against the spirit of the game to sell clears. but they are also a product of the endgame environment, from the design of boss fights to the community reaction to them.

According to the forum Guds 90 percent of the players get carried through everything without paying anyway. Maybe if they pay for it, it might be better accepted? They should have a pay for a carry in DF, that would be awesome. A "Pay as you Go" tab/option. /smiley-wink

And seriously I never understood the mentality behind paying for a clear. You've accomplished nothing really other than letting others do the work for you. Reminds me of people who run around with The Final Witness tag who did all of coil unsynced and in many cases as a carry for a tome bonus for relic. There was quite a lot of that on my server when relic first came out.

[MeiUshu]

Again i'll ask: Whats the difference between paying someone to carry you which you have a problem with and being carried by your friends/FC which you dont have a problem with?

Your question is easely answered : none

the point of Marxam though is totally another.

As for OP question, is it in the right spirit ? that dépends whom you ask. Those that sell those runs will tell you yes..afterall they make themselves available to take others through content for a price, is up to people to accept this or not, so those who accept think is totally ok and those who dont think is not ok but in the end, those that accepted are wel ahead those that didnt accept so really spirit, morality and the like are words that will be adapted depending who pronounces them

[Laurima]

Nice try Layla, but for the most part a dedicated carry run that was paid for will see said purchaser dead on the floor so they can't mess the fight up for the 'carriers'

having friends carry you in content is very very different, It might not be a one shot, they won't be left for dead on a floor, unless the healers had enough, they will have an opportunity to learn somewhat, certainly more than any paid for service will offer.

Personally, I loathe the fact that people sell runs, I know someone in my FC who paid for an A4S clear, and got the mount, they never raid, still don't. kinda sucks that gil can buy what hardwork and dedication cannot :/