Summoner revamp

[Cabalabob]

1. How could a SCH (which has same toolkit as SMN.. but without a pet, which deals about 30% of your dps as extra dps + damage oGCDs) out dps a SMN?
He has literally nothing (except healing) to deal more damage then the SMN, even on 50.

In 2.0 the only things SMN had over SCH was fester, a damage dealing pet and raging strikes. In sustained AoE situation, E.G dungeon speed runs, A.K.A the majority of content for 2.0, fester wasn't used, the pet's 90 potency auto attack was a drop in the bucket on those huge pulls and raging strikes could only be used once or twice.

The constant 10% damage buff from cleric's stance outweighed all of these things and a SCH rarely had to leave cleric's stance because Eos could handle most of the healing and lustrate still worked at full potency while cleric stance was on. So both their rotations consisted of DoT a mob > bane spam > shadowflare > blizzard 2 until DoTs need to be reapplied.

SMN might have beaten SCH dps on couple of occasions with raging strikes contagion DoTs but over the course of an entire dungeon run the SCH encDPS would be higher due to the extra sustained dps from cleric's stance.

[Leigaon]

Someone did make a post about the scaling of the summons to be more game friendly for the user and the environment. This was a big issue and I'm sure still is, though I do worry if a summon is too big, that could be an issue.

On the other side, I do like how they feel the summons should remain these powerful entities, and it might knock them down a notch to have smaller versions of them running around.

Though you're right, when I did the quests in 11 I felt more of a connection. I would have liked to see us try to summon Ifrit, Garuda, Ramuh etc..but show how we can be come either tempered or that our aether isn't enough to call them forth. That seems to have been forgotten.

These egis, while I've gotten use to them, could be replaced with lesser summons of their elements. Such as Mateus or Belias (I was sort of annoyed when I saw him...) that require less aether for us to use. There is a lot that could be done but it also takes time, effort, money..and someone high up enough to care and say "Do it"

I guess can only wait to see what 4.0 brings us and where our egi's go from there.

[Neophyte]

In 2.0 the only things SMN had over SCH was fester, a damage dealing pet and raging strikes. In sustained AoE situation, E.G dungeon speed runs, A.K.A the majority of content for 2.0, fester wasn't used, the pet's 90 potency auto attack was a drop in the bucket on those huge pulls and raging strikes could only be used once or twice.

The constant 10% damage buff from cleric's stance outweighed all of these things and a SCH rarely had to leave cleric's stance because Eos could handle most of the healing and lustrate still worked at full potency while cleric stance was on. So both their rotations consisted of DoT a mob > bane spam > shadowflare > blizzard 2 until DoTs need to be reapplied.

SMN might have beaten SCH dps on couple of occasions with raging strikes contagion DoTs but over the course of an entire dungeon run the SCH e reapply/bane again as soon as Bio1 runs out). ncDPS would be higher due to the extra sustained dps from cleric's stance.

Well, then was WHM the best dps of all classes. I didn't know you only meant overgeared (by tank, healer and dps) ez-pz dungeons, where contagion is not used/needed. Well then... maybe.

On a 18s (0:00 @ 3rd GCD = Bio) fight against X enemies a SCH has (both save one AF-stack for later fight):

[X *[(25+40+40+35+10) * 6 + 6*50 B2 + 10 Miasma2 hit)] + 1*150 ED] * 1,1
=
1,1*(X * 1210 + 150)
=
1331*X + 165 pot [@ 5 targets = 6820)


SMN got:
X *(25+40+40+35+10) * 6 + 6*50 B2 + 10 Miasma2 hit + 80 Aeroslash) + 1*300 Fester + 6*90 single target Egi
=
1290*X + 840 pot [@ 5 targets = 7290]


And there's also Spour (1322*X+1056) or Rouse+Spour (1366*X+1358).. oh, and enkindle.

If longer fight (= contagion) the SCH loses even more, since he has to redot, while SMN can do extra B2s.

And of course Fester was used, since you can't use three banes within a minute (unless you reapply DoTs too soon or don't use contagion).


Soooo... i don't believe you. :3

I mean, nothing despite Enkindle-CD was changed (Bane-buff was for both Jobs) for SMN <=50.. so SCH schould still do more dps than any SMN in lvl 50 content or below? I don't think so.

[YohSL]

Before 2.0 yoshi said he didn't want a smn job because he wanted summons to feel like super powerful beings, and that having a summoner job has to have balanced summons which belittles them being powerful.

So the simple reason summons in 14 are bad is because the director is spiteful!

Honestly I think Yoshida has right core philosophy when it comes to summons, if a little dogmatic and over the top. And I'd rather he had not buckled to fan pressure and put out this piece of crap because all he and his team have done is disappoint a lot of their fans and create unnecessary work for themselves.

And even if Primals do deliver on the feeling of power, it's all relative since players hand them their ass to them on a regular basis. You don't need to be able to summon the originals, just avatars of them, smaller very similar looking version of themselves, that are still very powerful, just not as powerful as the original.

[raela]

[

The point of the picture is to show that summons in all other ff games are like stallions and then ffxiv got a shetland pony.

Well, that was just about the stupidiest thing I've read this week. FYI, a stallion is an unneutered male horse and a shetland is a breed - there are shetland pony stallions, nice quality shetland ponies, and poor quality stallions. You really shouldn't use metaphors when you're clueless about them.

Traditional summon systems would be difficult to be implemented in FFXIV. I think the job works well here, and I'm hardly offended by the size of the Egis..

[YohSL]

Seven hells what is wrong with you people?

The one consistent thing is that Summoners summon, usually great honking magical creatures.
Sure the mechanics vary and the caster isn't always called a summoner, but the practice is the same. Through item or contract you expend your energy bringing them into the world, and they blow shit up for you. You summon, and sometimes support (thou in an mmo you would have to), and they do all the damage.

This is one of the few in the series where the summoner doesn't really summon anything, where the caster does all the work.
It's like having a Dragoon but finding out that they don't use spears or jumps, or a White Mage that doesn't use white magic and barely heals. You wouldn't bloody well call them a Dragoon or White Mage now would you? Even if they work well in whatever skill set they have, they still wouldn't fit the role, they would be that job in name only.

[Neophyte]

Seven hells what is wrong with you people?
[...]
It's like having a Dragoon but finding out that they don't use spears or jumps,[...]

Funny thing is:

In every other FF-game the jumps are used to dodge attacks, while in this FF-game they're 'used' to get into attacks.

[Samsta]

These threads have been popping up since the launch of 2.0 and believe me, they are not gonna change the way the job works now.

[YohSL]

These threads have been popping up since the launch of 2.0 and believe me, they are not gonna change the way the job works now.

Well, if you ask you might receive, if you don't ask then you'll likely never receive.

[Samsta]

Well, if you ask you might receive, if you don't ask then you'll likely never receive.

I would not get my hopes up. Like I said, these threads with really good ideas have been constantly made for 3 years now, clearly the devs are not gonna change 1 job so drastically.