The Silence Penalty

[Nuna]

Me, all the time. Almost every day. I log in. I might step away while it loads. I might step away for up to 30 mins. I have kids. Sometimes they are keeping busy so I think I can log in. Sometimes they see me log in and suddenly decide they need a 3 course meal for breakfast. Sometimes I can get caught up watching TV or reading articles, and don't move in game for a while. Or I might be deep in a great conversation with my FC or a friend and don't move. So you're gonna boot me for that? And if I do it twice in a day, suddenly I'm a bot?

Not everyone plays this game with max efficiency. Sometimes, some of us log in, and do something for a few mins then AFK to take care of RL, then come back to play for a few mins, rinse, repeat.

I can also confirm this. Kids wait as soon as you sit down to call you for something. -___-

[Anyaira]

I believe we should look at this from another perspective.

Instead of trying to find a way to recognize and ban RMT advertising characters, it would be much, much simpler to add a chat filtering option to the character menu.

This filter should allow to choose to what chats it has to be applied to, be it a single chat, some specific ones, or even to get them all filtered out.

The filter should include a number of options, I would personally like to have these:

Filter by Level (maximum among all classes) [choosing in ranges of 5 would be ideal]
Filter by Job [wether the character has none, or by specific jobs]
Filter by Newbie Status [wether they are still a newbie or not]
Filter by membership of Free Company [wether they belong to your FC or not, potentially to certain FCs we might choose/write]
Filter by presence within our Friend List [self explanatory]
Filter by Presence within our Linkshells [self explanatory]
Filter by players within the Newbie Network [self explanatory]
Filter by Mentor Status [wether they have a mentor status on DOL, DOW/DOM or DOH]

This way, not only are we able to lock out RMT advertisers from sending us whispers, but we might also be able to profit from this by being able to filter the chat conversations to what we want to, such us talking to specific players with certain jobs to which we might have some questions, or requesting crafts, or whoever knows what. I admit this can seggregate the population, so maybe some of these options should be restricted to the /say, /yell, /shout and the /tell chats, since they're the ones mainly used by RMT advertisers.

I also believe this filter should be client-side only (though some options might incur in message reception lag when selecting specific filtering options), not only would the servers not get any extra load, but additionally, this way the log is still generated and SE can analyze what the RMT advertisers try to say, and at the same time, by analyzing the different setups for the filters the users have configured, SE might just be able to directly log only the RMT messages and study how they usually write them, in order to ban them more efficiently in the future.


Well, I'll cross my fingers so that they consider my proposal seriously!

[Wildsprite]

the best solution to eliminate the spam would be for them to allow the players to have filters we could add to. it wouldn't be that hard to do
it would be as simple as
*word*
there are many setups that could be added to this
once you figure out the word or words being used and add them you will not see messages with those filters. and they could do one step better as well by keeping it server side they can check our filters and add them to the system as time goes on thus making it very hard for RMT to sell anything.

The filter should include a number of options, I would personally like to have these:

Filter by Level (maximum among all classes) [choosing in ranges of 5 would be ideal]
Filter by Job [wether the character has none, or by specific jobs]
Filter by Newbie Status [wether they are still a newbie or not]
Filter by membership of Free Company [wether they belong to your FC or not, potentially to certain FCs we might choose/write]
Filter by presence within our Friend List [self explanatory]
Filter by Presence within our Linkshells [self explanatory]
Filter by players within the Newbie Network [self explanatory]
Filter by Mentor Status [wether they have a mentor status on DOL, DOW/DOM or DOH]

This way, not only are we able to lock out RMT advertisers from sending us whispers, but we might also be able to profit from this by being able to filter the chat conversations to what we want to, such us talking to specific players with certain jobs to which we might have some questions, or requesting crafts, or whoever knows what. I admit this can seggregate the population, so maybe some of these options should be restricted to the /say, /yell, /shout and the /tell chats, since they're the ones mainly used by RMT advertisers.

this is a good idea as well

I also believe this filter should be client-side only (though some options might incur in message reception lag when selecting specific filtering options), not only would the servers not get any extra load, but additionally, this way the log is still generated and SE can analyze what the RMT advertisers try to say, and at the same time, by analyzing the different setups for the filters the users have configured, SE might just be able to directly log only the RMT messages and study how they usually write them, in order to ban them more efficiently in the future.

I disagree with this part because even if the filters were server side the GMs could still see the RMT messages unfiltered. they dont need to have filtered logs for the servers only the clients and this can still be done server side with very little extra load.
FFXI has server side spam filters, they are halfway decent too.







as for the silence option...this might work to a degree but it would be easier to abuse than filters would

[Anyaira]

I disagree with this part because even if the filters were server side the GMs could still see the RMT messages unfiltered. they dont need to have filtered logs for the servers only the clients and this can still be done server side with very little extra load.
FFXI has server side spam filters, they are halfway decent too.

I didn't mean for the filter to be exclusively client-side, but for the action the filter does, so instead of having this:

Spam bot writes msg > Player Filter loaded to server > message filtered > messages logged > filtered message sent from server to player > Filtered chat displayed

We would have this:

Spam bot writes msg ---->Message sent from server to player > player client filter activates > filtered chat displayed
******************---->Message logged into server > player client filter load > log filtered and unfiltered messages

This allows for the server to have less load (ridicule for a single player, but quite large for thousands of players). Still, this depends on how the chat works internally, I simply pictured a raw message transmission and applied the filtering there, but it could be quite different and allow for what you said, which would be ideal btw, since it prevents unnecessary data (bot messages) to get past the servers, and thus lowers the amount of transmited data from server to client (less server load, again).

Still, this is something the devs will see when they decide to implement such a system, I bet they have a much better idea of what they're doing than I.

What still worries me though, is that, as I said, a system such as this could seggregate players if applied to normal chat channels, so I could see the devs being reluctant to add it.


As for the message filter by black-listed words you mentioned, I've seen some people use an add-on that does just that, and I can tell it's not effective in the least in the long-run. The words the SPAM bots use are too strange, too varied to be able to keep up with a filter that must be created manually (and yes, filtered words could be shared and all that, but it still wouldn't be very effective). There are even filters like that in many forums and the bots still manage to slip through them, plus the risk of filtering real messages is very high (I look at you proffanity filter), moreso when so many different languages are used within FFXIV. It could have its uses, but the system is so open that in the end the bots would still win... on the other hand, I don't see a gold seller company leveling all their bots and making them run dungeons and making FCs just to get past those filters, it wouldn't be worth it (unless they have some super fast leveling system, such as super speed attacks and instant teleportation, but then again, they would be very noticeable in a short amount of time).

[LineageRazor]

Whatever filtering options you might suggest, there's no chance SE will implement them unless they can reliably differentiate between a bot and a legitimate new player. SE is afraid - and justifiably so! - that if they implement, say, filter-by-low-level, eager new players will join the game and encounter a wall of silent strangers who completely ignore them. There will be far too many players who justify throwing the baby out with the bathwater by assuming that other players will be there to catch that baby - when all those other players are assuming the very same thing.

Withholding the players' option to blanket-blacklist all new players was a deliberate design decision, and not one that I anticipate will change. New players are the lifeblood of any MMO and need to be made to feel welcome. The hardcore, I'll-be-here-til-the-servers-die faction is far too small to support the game on their own.

[Anyaira]

Your argument doesn't really hold by the fact I simply proposed several filtering options. You say low level players will be left out? Well, leaving aside the fact that new players play solo for the first... 10 to 15 levels or so, that these levels can be done leisurely playing for a couple of hours, and that all the content until lvl 14 is focused on solo play... if SE believes adding a filter option for level and newbie status is too much, having the other filter options is still a VERY possible option; I and most of my FC play usually ony with the FC chat active, and relying on /tell and Linkshells for any other chat interaction, as well as the newbie network; adding filters to the /tell, /sh and /yell would help us a lot for the remaining interaction, since we either talk casually, recruit party members or request/offer crafts for these chat channels, making the presence of bots absolutely unbearable, and giving up on using them and deleting them form the chat windows we use. I believe adding a filter so we can reuse those chat channels is much better than staying on /busy all the time form the beginning of our game sessions to the very end, and not looking at any other chat channel than our linkshells, FC chat and the Party Finder; it's leaps and bounds better wether you ask me or anyone: [/fc, /lX & PF] vs [All channels + filer], it's pretty obvious what the best solution is. And as stated before, newbie players won't even notice, I've known zero newbies trying to whisper me, they have all been at least level 14, or, currently, they have used the newbie network for any questions.

Besides... wouldn't newbie players have played the trial before purchasing the game? If memory serves me right, the Trial version does NOT allow for /shout, /yell and /tell on trial accounts, they cannot trade, use linkshells, join free companies, etc. These restrictions are there for a reason, as well as because of a simple fact, players below lvl 20 (level cap for trial account characters) are not expected to join in advanced chat channels with other players, for the content is not designed in that way, it's focused on learning basic gameplay, understanding simple mechanics and user interface, as well as game systems such as the first duty through the DF, summing up, a tutorial that takes around 20 levels.

However, speculating about this is meaningless, we are here to propose systems by which SE will make playing much better, and the whole community thinking together about solutions is much better than a couple of devs taking spare time to think them up. Trying to find fault on the systems we propose is also a meaningles endeavor, lots of us are posting, so it's far better if you post your own version than complain about others's versions, you can take what the others have said and create your own revamped proposal that might just blow our minds.

That goes for me as well, replying to such a fruitless post is also meaningless, since no human has ever convinced another, but I still hope, as dumb as that is.

[Sanghelios]

I like the idea of community dictated moderation. My only concern is that some might use it as a way of abusing others. For example, someone could get their linkshell to constantly report someone they just don't like.
If they can prevent that kind of abuse, then I'm all for it.

Well of course they can. If a group of people continues to report you, you can just report that to an GM and they will give them a warning/ban. Easy as that.

[MaeIsMean]

I like the idea of community dictated moderation. My only concern is that some might use it as a way of abusing others. For example, someone could get their linkshell to constantly report someone they just don't like.
If they can prevent that kind of abuse, then I'm all for it.

If you read how Blizzard is doing it, the person doesn't get silenced until a GM reviews the reports. It's not automatic. So abuse will be easily spotted by a bunch of reports on someone for no reason. Unless the person was being abusive or spammy, the GM wouldn't silence them.

[Berethos]

If you read how Blizzard is doing it, the person doesn't get silenced until a GM reviews the reports. It's not automatic.

That's how they claimed they were doing it, that it would be Report->Investigate->Silence/Not Silence based on said investigation.

What it's turned out to be is Report->Silence->Investigate->Repeal/Uphold.

There's a lot of irate forum posts over on their boards right now because of that.

[Niwashi]

Well of course they can. If a group of people continues to report you, you can just report that to an GM and they will give them a warning/ban. Easy as that.

You don't even need to report it to the GMs since they're the ones who get the original reports, so they'll already know when false reports come in. (And that's a good thing, since you also wouldn't be able to report it. Who would you even report? It's not like you'd know who had falsely reported you. You might not even know you'd been silenced.)

One person reporting a message that's not RMT spam would probably just get a warning. (After all, maybe they just mis-clicked when trying to report the name below yours, rather than having deliberately tried to harass you.) But that's also why a single report wouldn't silence anyone, and it takes multiple reports against the same person before that happens. If 20 or 30 false reports all came in against the same person, it's not going to be a simple error. The only way that can happen is if they all conspired with each other to harass that player. A harassment conspiracy of that sort justifies a permanent ban on all their accounts rather than a simple warning.